@TheCoolest @gargron Im implying that most people don't have the option to make there own version

@zeezeemoomoo
So are you implying from that @Gargron is obligated to make software for people who can't make it themselves?

@TheCoolest @Gargron I won't imply that. I'll say it out loud.

This platform is nothing without the people contribute content to it.

Mastadon's developers are obligated to listen to Mastadon's users because they contribute just as much as any developer.

@Nerdcoresteve
Obligated to listen and obligated to act upon are two separate things. I'm sure he'll take suggestions still, if they're ones *he* wants for *his* platform.

@TheCoolest He's made it clear that he won't and you've made it clear that you're in favor of hierarchical systems where no one gets any say but people at the top.

@Nerdcoresteve
This is FOSS

Developers are at the top

Anyone who learns how to can put themselves up there

@TheCoolest And this is a good thing because...?

@Nerdcoresteve
Because FOSS isn't heiarchal like that. The idea is that the users can and should be the developers. What you seem to be asking for instead is that Gargron be the one to carry it all out, which to me sounds authoritarian.

@TheCoolest It's extremely elitist to say that if the users of a social network don't like how its run, they should become coders and provide an alternative.

It really is such a tired and predictable dudebro move to say that objecting to authoritarian behavior is itself authoritarian.

@Nerdcoresteve

The FOSS philosophy has been around way before Mastodon, if you ask me I think people should've known what they signed up for

How would you suggest maintaining Mastodon in a way that won't be considered elitist

@TheCoolest democracy

@Nerdcoresteve
Then suggest voting on features

or better yet, make a fork, *then* vote on features.

@TheCoolest "My or the highway" is also a predictably dude-bro-ish and tone deaf response to objections to authoritarian behavior.

"Make a fork" is among other things, morally equivalent to saying "I have the right to say what I want" when someone says something deserving of criticism is criticized.

@TheCoolest Given the history of how suggestions and concerns have been addressed on this platform, telling me to suggest a feature is effectively telling me to sit down and shut up.

@Nerdcoresteve
And you have free will to choose whether or not to use this platform

@Nerdcoresteve
second time you used "dude-bro-ish" to be dismissive, and I'm wondering who you're pointing it at, because I don't post enough information on myself for anyone to label me as such.

@TheCoolest I'll stop being dismissive when you do.

@Nerdcoresteve
What do I have to do to make you think I'm nor being dismissive

@TheCoolest I'll treat this like a sincere question and turn off the snark/anger for a bit.

This may sound like I'm just continuing the argument...

but...

I can't avoid pointing out that telling people who contribute content to Mastadon but don't have the resources and/or skill to fork the Mastodon project that the only option they have is to fork the Mastodon project...

Well it's mean. I don't see how that point of view can't be dismissive.

@TheCoolest Mastodon is a safe space that people gravitated to because they needed a safe space.

Having a "benevolent" dictator in charge has lead to that dictator not addressing the needs of the community he helped build.

I sincerely don't understand how you can't see why this is wrong.

@Nerdcoresteve
Oh damn projection much

I said no more replies but now I'd just love to hear your thoughts on benevolent god emperor overlord Linus Torvalds 🤣

@Nerdcoresteve
It's harsh but nobody can please everyone.

This I take it means that you'll only think I'm listening to you when I start agreeing with you, and you'll only listen to me when you think I'm listening to you,

so you'll only listen to me when I agree with you.

Since that seems like talking to a brick wall, I'm done replying.

@TheCoolest @Gargron

She's implying that saying "fork it yourself" isn't a good answer when people point out issues.

@woozle
If she said that I would've sort of agreed and moved on

I mean even though the Linus Torvalds way seems to work...

It's the part about thinking developers gotta do everything users can't which gets me. That's not how that works.
@Gargron

@TheCoolest @Gargron

That's not what I got from it.

The dialogue I got was:

Eugen: Don't like it? Spin your own.
CMMC: Not all of us have the resources or knowledge to solve the problem that way.

To be as fair as possible, Eugen can't fix everything and Mastodon Vanilla can't be all things to all users; we do *need* forks.

But the problems that CMMC have identified are real, and need fixing.

I *almost* have the time to dive into this. Maybe soon? Hopefully others will also.

@TheCoolest @Gargron

s/that CMMC have identified/that CMMC and others have identified/

@woozle
As a self-taught programmer who also helps kids learn programming I have to disagree on principle with anyone who says they don't have the resources when they do have a computer. At least that's my perspective.
@Gargron

@TheCoolest @Gargron

I've got 30+ years of coding experience, I code for a living, and *I* haven't had the resources to dive into it.

I've barely had the time/energy to dive into installing and maintaining Mastodon. It's complicated.

There does seem to be a legitimate cultural gap on this point, so I'll be happy to explain further if needed.

@woozle
That's understandable, time is another thing. Using it to argue on the internet probably isn't the best way to direct it though.

I saw in another thread after this Gargron listened to a feature suggestion for plugins/extensions so that not everything has to be part of the main thing. I hope that happens.
@Gargron

@TheCoolest @Gargron

> time is another thing. Using it to argue on the internet probably isn't the best way to direct it though.

A toot takes <60 seconds to type.

Installing Mastodon takes more like a week, if you're not familiar with RoR.

Learning enough of Mastodon's internals (or the internals of any major app) is more like a month.

It's not really a fair comparison.

@woozle
You are making fair points but the reality is not every feature has to be implemented if the developer doesn't want them in his software.

@TheCoolest

What you just said doesn't contradict what I said.

Forking and coding on a major project like Mastodon is a major investment of time.

@woozle
Then we should be on the same page

And if the dev isn't implementing something which people still want implemented, what's there left to do other than fork it?

@TheCoolest

I agree with this conclusion.

My only objection is with how user complaints are currently being handled, not with the idea that forking is probably the best solution.

@MatejLach @gargron

youve made several false assumptions:
1. that everyone has time and energy
2. that eugen receieves no compensation or credit for his work
3. eugen is the only contributor to mastodon

@zeezeemoomoo @Gargron I did not.

1. I understand that, I have very little free time personally, but that's why I don't abuse people like Eugen who use their limited time on this Earth to build something others find useful. It can burn them out and then there will be less people willing to create things.

2a. For a long time, he did not. He does now, but that doesn't mean he lost all say over the software he has started, Windows is paid and they don't give a shit about what you say.

@zeezeemoomoo @Gargron 2b. 2b. Eugen does listen, but there's one group of people who say he should do X and another to do Y. He makes a choice and gets personally abused by the group that didn't get their wish. This is UNACCEPTABLE and IRRATIONAL.

3. No, but he is the originator, most significant contributor and director of the project and at some point he has to make a decision on things, which is guaranteed to irk somebody the wrong way.

@zeezeemoomoo @Gargron Also, don't frame this as his privilege, something is just dedication and passion. You don't know what he had to sacrifice to be able to work on mastodon, back when nobody knew about it.

@MatejLach @gargron oh so he has stuff to sacrifice? thats privilege.

@zeezeemoomoo @Gargron Everybody does have stuff to sacrifice, every single one of us, the question is how much you're willing to give up now, in order to peruse what you believe in, despite the challenges.

@MatejLach @gargron I don't have stuff to sacrifice. I have mental health issues and a family that doesn't understand well enough to be supportive. Those mental health problems include autism, depression and anxiety. I hardly have energy for anything

@gargron @MatejLach oh yes and Im trans and too anxious to come out for years.

I dont have energy and time to sacrifice

@zeezeemoomoo @Gargron So why use the little energy you have left to attack somebody who has been the subject of abuse for the past day for listening to the community, just apparently not the right people to not get abuse. If you yourself are facing abuse, why spread it around?

@MatejLach @gargron GARGRON HAS BEEN THE SUBJECT OF ABUSE?!?! NOW THATS A HILARIOUS FUCKING JOKE

@gargron @MatejLach "stop having emotions and magically learn to code"

@zeezeemoomoo
As someone who volunteers to help kids learn coding, I can't help but go on a tangent to recommend it. codecademy.com is my favourite tutorial site if you're interested.

I don't want to sound like I know what's best, but it seems like you could use a hobby to take your mind off things.

@zeezeemoomoo @Gargron He has been called a predator, a bad person etc. Much of it took place on GitHub, not here.

I am not saying you shouldn't have emotions and magically learn to code, I am saying don't do to others what you wouldn't want done to you.

@MatejLach @gargron thats because he is a bad person /shrug

@zeezeemoomoo @Gargron Please stop acting like a child. And stop using your personal problems as a shield when someone calls you on it. You're not winning anybody over. And before you make statements like that's easy for me to say, I have my own severe health problems. Yet, I do not use that as a free pass for me to act entitled. You're not entitled to Eugen's work or his agreement with you.

He has created something positive and gave it away, you just spread negativity, but you CAN change that.

@MatejLach @gargron
he hasnt "created" something positive though

and yeah inventing health problems doesnt prove any of my points wrong lol. and I looked up the "predator" post and the context iirc made it seem pretty accurate to me

@zeezeemoomoo @Gargron

> he hasnt "created" something positive though

The whole point you're continually missing here is that these are your own personal opinions, not objective truths.
I happen to think he did, but if it's so bad, I don't understand why you're using it then.

It's also amusing that you call somebody a bad person, yet you talk about 'inventing health problems'. Without knowing me personally, I'd say you made that statement in bad faith.

What does that make you?

@MatejLach @gargron

I don't know what I am but I'mm not some white dude trying to bully vulnerable people like you and gargron are