I would totally pay a global tax to the UN to get access to a truly free internet run by them. And I would even pay tenfold to give that same freedom to nine people I don’t know and who might be totally against my values. 1/2

@dredmorbius and I’m on your side. So let’s move onward. Find better solutions. Expose the failures. Iterate. Look forward.

@jwildeboer So, a couple of approaches I try to use:

1. Establish common ground or agreement.

2. Identify concerns or disagreeent.

3. Seek to expand 1 and shrink 2.

Which follow.

@jwildeboer A first question might be:

What problem are you trying to solve?

E.g., what's wrong with present systems? What do you want to do?

@dredmorbius I’ve said that in this very thread three times. We. Need. Global. Governance. For. Global. Problems. And our current systems do not deliver, as you pointed out. So. What’s next?

@jwildeboer @dredmorbius The problem is there's no guarantee that a global solution will end up with the freedoms you desire; most of the world doesn't have that level of freedom, so the likely outcome of global agreement is global agreement to censor.

@penguin42 @jwildeboer @dredmorbius indeed. yes. philisophical hypothetical: what if there were a magical oracle that could tell you exactly what the best global solution to a problem is, infallibly, and the oracle said “dictatorship with tight speech controls”, would you accept it as the correct answer? how would you react?

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@zensaiyuki @penguin42 @jwildeboer @dredmorbius how could you possibly know if the oracle is correct? Either it's simple faith, in which case this is no different from declaring a global caliphate, or it's possible to check the oracle's answer without doing what they say, meaning that you already have a way to prove that it's the best solution and you would have checked that anyway.

@zardoz @penguin42 @jwildeboer @dredmorbius let’s just say that it is correct and infallible because it is. the point of the question is, how willing are you to accept that an answer that is personally unpalatable to you is the best one?

@zensaiyuki @penguin42 @jwildeboer @dredmorbius I would be unwilling to accept anything as true if I could not verify it myself.

@zardoz @penguin42 @jwildeboer @dredmorbius well let’s just say then that you go and verify it yourself and you find out the oracle is always right.

@zensaiyuki @penguin42 @jwildeboer @dredmorbius additionally, if something I find intolerable is the answer to a problem, then I would say that the issue lies with the statement of the problem and parameters. There's always at least one global maximum given any parameters, such as "keep personal freedom and whatnot"

@zardoz @penguin42 @jwildeboer @dredmorbius then why all the theater about checkong and double checking the oracle, but never for a second doubting yourself?

@zensaiyuki @penguin42 @jwildeboer @dredmorbius Who said I never doubted my self? You're missing the point of my argument: I do not doubt that, with improperly constrained parameters, the oracle might tell me objective truth that I dislike. But since I can constrain my parameters to take into account my judgement, that is not an issue.

@zardoz @penguin42 @jwildeboer @dredmorbius so then, do you consider your *judgement* good enough to inflict on the broad diversity of people on the entire planet, many of which living lives entirely different from your own?

@zensaiyuki @penguin42 @jwildeboer @dredmorbius no, hence why I don't seek power over others.

In your hypothetical example though, is this some thing that magically happens and I can't get together a large and diverse group of people to find a set of commonly agreeable parameters? Because in that case yes, because I believe that in my gut I know right from wrong.

@zardoz I don't _consciously_ seek power over others, as a rule.

I've increasingly found myself in irreconcilable conflict with others over matters in which there is apparently no common ground. It's distressing. I find I ultimately have to act in my own interests even where I'm aware my counterparty will be harmed, as they 1) leave no option and 2) will exercise the same behaviour over me.

Well, there is an option, but it would be complete capitulation.

@zensaiyuki @penguin42 @jwildeboer

@zensaiyuki @penguin42 @jwildeboer @dredmorbius your question involves judgements and objective facts. As the old saying goes: "you cannot get an ought from an is". Basically if I judge that something is wrong, that is not because I took some facts and used logic to come to a conclusion, it's because I have that judgement and it's not related to facts.

So, if the oracle tells me what facts are true given my parameters informed by my judgement, I accept it. If it tells me what judgement is true, I do not.

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