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I do wish people wouldn't post things that amount to "ha ha, people use Linux and care about owning their computing time, imagine how much more they'd get done if they didn't."

I wouldn't be getting more done, I'd be in another industry.

"wow why don't people like it when software companies market their software as working on their computers, when in fact the software only incidentally works on their computers due to an unrelated project"

i can't imagine

"haha look at all those audio APIs on Linux. they can't even decide on one way to do this simple thing" that's because it's not simple. general case routing of audio and MIDI is a really hard problem. people pay hundreds of dollars to solve it.

"wow Linux is so hard to develop for. there are so many distributions and so many sets of libraries." yeah you don't ship your games for Windows Server 2019 either. just pick a distro and ship. maybe ask around a bit.

look i'm sorry i'm salty but i'm simultaneously dealing with Microsoft destroying free software's legal protections, people i respect incessantly making fun of the only thing that makes computers usable for me, and the death of my father. fuck you

@tindall If I was a developer I would simply fix all the problems of computers instead of adding new ones, easy

@elomatreb @tindall If I was a developer I would simply dab, and the sheer majesty of my perfect form would render all problems irrelevant.

@tindall just a stranger but hug! That must be fucking awful

@tindall@cybre.space Microsoft deserves to be broken up into smaller companies, and Windows made to be open source.

@tindall Isn't shipping and software separate either? Like you make some open source code and the distribution managers then package it?

@x44203 yeah but that's generally not possible for e.g. games folks because they'd have to make their software at least somewhat understandable to maintainers and that's not good for some reason

@x44203 this is one reason Valve is so good for Linux gaming. They act like repository maintainers, but for a large class of proprietary software, and have lawyers who can make that work. Very useful!

@tindall 🦋 besides which we’ve gotten tons of games intended for ubuntu to work fine on arch without much trouble, there’s not that much difference between distros

@tindall 🦋 like pick one to support and we will make it work on the rest on our own Linux is like that

@changeling @tindall

Yeah, it’s pretty much always possible. I have a copy of the Humble Bundle Linux port of Torchlight that broke sometime after release. Turns out, it was incompatible with newer libsdl and it was pretty simple to find an old version from a previous distro release and drop it in the dir.

That fixed it.

And good luck doing that with a Windows XP system dll.

@tindall
DirectX revisions also introduced and discarded lots of audio apis.

@loonycyborg @tindall the cool thing about windows is that all the old APIs stay in their test suite 😸

@tindall I kept bringing a variation of this up whenever I heard (iOS) developers complain about Android fragmentation.

Yes, it exists. Just like the problem that on the desktop there are a gazillion different resolutions to consider, and you may have an API on one desktop platform but not the other.

Android's fragmentation is only hard if the only yardstick you know is the monoculture of Apple. Even Microsoft has more variety in their OS products to target.

Same here, really.

@jens Saying iOS doesn't have fragmentation is just dumb, you have to develop for the 1,500 iPhones and iPads that have been released in the past five years, but unlike Android where you get emulators for most system versions and flagship phone models for free with the Android SDK on all platforms; with Apple you either have to buy all the hardware to test on or buy a Mac and pay out the ass every year for the Apple Developer Program to get the iOS Simulator.

@tindall

@tindall That said, if you target #Debian Stable, it's probably going to run pretty much everywhere.

@tindall You don't even need to target a distro. Appimage, Flatpak, and Snap are all a thing, pick one of those and everything fit for daily use will run them.

@tindall Linux is hard to develop for?

I have zero fucking idea where to even begin with Windows. :blobugh:

@Jo @tindall

Fun fact: if you use Wine and the mingw cross compiler, you can do Windows dev without having to touch Windows.

@suetanvil @tindall I feel like that would be revenge on every game dev that shit out a Linux version of their game without properly testing it. :blob_laughing:

@Jo @tindall

FWIW, I generally don't resent gamedevs for cheaping out on the Linux port. Linux is on <2% of PCs and not really friendly to running shrinkwrapped binaries out of the box so from a cost-benefit PoV, I'm surprised *anyone* ports games to it at all.

@suetanvil @tindall I mean also, not producing a port at all would be preferable to releasing a port without any kind of testing, thinking it would behave the same regardless of platform. :blobtilt:

@suetanvil @tindall A lack of a port is one thing, releasing a port that doesn't even behave close to intended, later admitting you did zero testing and making excuses that you can't afford to install the OS (in this case Linux) to test it yourself is... horrendous on so many levels.

@Jo @tindall

Ouch!

(I mean, I guess it'd be forgivable if they didn't claim to support Linux and then tossed it out as an unofficial freebie for people who bought Windows version, but I'm guessing it's not that.)

@suetanvil Or you just do what Steam does and say “We only support Ubuntu LTS xx.xx, it might work on your distro but we won't provide any support if it doesn't.”

@Jo @tindall

@nytpu @Jo @tindall

That pretty much what everyone who ships Linux binaries does. That and build against the oldest version available.

@tindall I want to give you the world's biggest soapbox right now, to give you better footing.

@tindall You know what I find interesting about those different audio APIs? Anymore they're mostly different means for the exact same components to communicate together.

To be clear I don't see this is as being ugly, but a mildly amusing illustration of a common strength of free software! Successful projects tend to accrue support for all the protocols, etc!

@tindall Somewhat related story: I once had a wifi dongle which advertised Linux support. Turned out it provided a driver you could install against an old kernel version. No way was I going to downgrade to a Meltdown-vulnerable kernel, so I got a refund!

So lesson learned: Be suspicious if the hardware vendor hasn't contributed the driver upstream leaving you to need to install it!

Happy ending: Linux has now figured out how to utilize my laptop's builtin wifi card.

@tindall this is such a weird take -- since switching back to linux full time in 2018 i actually get *a lot* more done and i am less stressed out in general lol

@nasser @tindall I had the exact opposite reaction. I used Linux for many years and had almost lost whatever happiness I had with computing. It just seemed boring and broken and hopeless. Switching to a mac made me so much happier and so much more productive.

I sometimes go back to try what it's like but I still can't find anything I like. This is with sadness though, not gloat, I really wish it would have worked out and I think some day it will.

@mnda @tindall everyone's experience is their own, and I'm sorry you had a bad one! for what it's worth I am on Arch Linux with a carefully configured tiling window manager (bspwm) that has done wonders for my sense of anxiety when using computers... overlapping windows and desktop icons send me into an anxious spiral...

@nasser my problem is the ability to tweak things and too much choice; it makes me depth first search for the best possible solution which takes infinite time. I have spent countless hours recompiling Linux, for example.

My latest attempt was arch with sway. Didn’t get suspend and resume to work well, the network configuration wasn’t stable and the touchpad didn’t really work. Also font rendering wasn’t good.

@mnda @nasser I generally use linux mint with almost no configuring/tweaking and everything 'just works', might be worth a look?

@mnda @nasser Other O/Ss are completely alien and frustrating to me though. I think it's easy to understate the confusion and stress involved with changing operating system. It's a change of mindset

@nasser @yaxu I actually do pretty ok with different OSes as long as it’s not Windows. Windows is terrible.

@nasser @yaxu I think Elementary plus Homebrew for packages might work too though so I’ll give that a try as well.

@yaxu @nasser I’ll try that for a bit on my Linux laptop next time and see how it works. Have heard good things about it before.

I’m running Ubuntu on my server but the UI of Ubuntu is terrible and the packages are always outdated and impossible to fix yourself.

@mnda I would not recommend using anything based on Wayland yet. that seems to still be a recipe for headache and heartache, although I appreciate the effort. there is a question of hardware compatibility, and sometimes it's a bit of a gamble. I try and only use hardware that is confirmed to work well with Linux by others. if it's helpful at all these are my rough notes at setting up my Razer Blade with Arch / bspwm: notion.so/ramseynasser/Year-of

@nasser @tindall my co-workers are constantly bugging me about "hey do you know why I run into this weird error trying to run the tests" and it always comes down to being a weird mac thing. it's not even because macs are in the minority; everyone but me on the team uses them! it's so weird. one of them just switched to doing their dev work in virtualbox on their mac just to get a proper debian foundation that wouldn't randomly fail on them.

@tindall Imagine how much more productive my browser engine dev would be if the Microsoft, Apple, & Google actually had their desktops follow established open standards? But no, they want to lock devs & in turn users in to their software!

Then Google wanted to comoditize their complement & reshape the web into which they've already bought to suit their purposes. Which doesn't suit mine.

@tindall gosh

the amount of time I've wasted on my $work mac book
as… i've never used a mac
and, there's so much things i needed to disable just to not go nuts

and, why doesn't a modern desktop Unix have a compose key??

@meena @tindall context? My Ubuntu box does have a compose key for most keyboards.

@tindall Windows has wasted more of its users' time than any other OS by virtue of its (monopoly) market share. At least with Linux when you web search support resources it's not 99% people who are acting on pure superstition because they can't understand or access many OS internals.
Best move is to readily admit ways in which open solutions could be much better, while pointing out that the closed alternatives are still profound wastes of human energy that exist to enrich a very few.

@tindall I literally use linux because windows can't even compile a binary without a hundred libraries linked just for a hello world
(I haven't touched windows in years so this may no longer hold)

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