Some of you people actually think Microsoft isn't going to screw you over and it shows

I know some people I respect work there but holy _shit_ y'all

They consistently build user hostile software that trades on attention and tolerance of their bullshit because there's no other option

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Using some cool trendy technologies and open sourcing some unprofitable shit doesn't negate the irreversible harm they've done to the industry and it's really not okay to participate in that

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Like oh yeah MS loves Linux and open source now, sure, but that's because they _won_. Free desktops are essentially zero in the market, even Mac OS isn't a viable option for a lot of people, and they successfully capitalize on that in extremely predatory ways

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Not to mention that they trade the tech FOSS has been desperately building to keep itself relevant for years and just pretend it's something that they invented

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WSL1 is literally just WINE in reverse but I don't see a lot of donations going from MS to the WINE or Proton projects

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Case in point: This fucking bullshit, in which MS tramples an existing Linux project's trademark and, when this is brought to their attention, tell everyone to just calm down:

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Mark my words: the free desktop is going to get right and properly EEE'd within the next five years, and none of you are going to lift a fucking finger to stop it because Microsoft is all cuddly and friendly now.

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@tindall it's just truly sad when people forget the past and believe they've changed...

@tindall I don't think Microsoft could screw me over because it would be indistinguishable from Microsoft's normal operating conditions

@ben @tindall So you're saying if Microsoft screwed you over, how could you tell? 🤯

@tindall yea so true, growing up being fooled by "don't be evil" motto of a certain evil corp, i can see this is being repeated with microsoft this time

I don't think WSL1 reused any parts of WINE, as it's doing the exact opposite of what WINE is doing. As for the idea itself - that's old. Windows NT was designed for multiple userspace APIs from day one. They have win32 subsystem, and they used to also have POSIX and I think OS/2 subsystems back in the day.

What they're doinh is still EEE and we should be wary of that, but I don't think they took any advantage from WINE.

@tindall i don't think they believe they have won, yet - and i see the whole "ms <3 linux" thing as the first part of their classic 90s embrace-extend-extinguish scheme

and, right now, *this week*, they are beginning to step into the extend phase

@tindall and the worst part of it is that the way they are doing it lets them be accused of it and have plausible deniability the whole way, and lets them get their own developers to genuinely believe that is not what is happening

@tindall frankly, it's pretty easy to point out reasons why they haven't won

in the server market right now? linux is indisputably the king, windows shops - that actually use windows as the public facing server software - are rare

in the smartphone market? android and apple have all of the market share. microsoft has nothing there, and can't even get people to use their apps on that platform

embedded world? windows is struggling to maintain relevance now that wince is basically gone, and windows iot core is an extremely insufficient replacement... all of the stuff i work on is either linux native or involves porting an old wince app to linux as that's the only path that will work with the hardware

commercial world? you'd be very surprised the prevalence of opensuse as a commercial point of sales system over windows embedded pos

the segment that microsoft owns is rather limited to consumer and enterprise desktop systems, and one of those markets is losing traction in favor of smartphones

@tindall microsoft's clear path forward, if they want to be evil, is to do exactly the same thing they have done before - try to entice developers to their platform by integrating all the functionality of these other platforms, that are winning elsewhere, getting developers to be at the very least *content* on a windows machine, and then changing their software slowly to be incompatible by adding functionality that only works in their environment

if they are successful, then suddenly you'll start seeing people wanting to deploy in a WSL2 environment on a windows server because otherwise they have to rewrite functionality

@tindall my response to this is that the only response we can safely make is to either deny them outright, and tell their developers to fuck off

or (and possibly doing this anyway) take their "extensions" and integrate them even further, with even more functionality, on the linux desktop

microsoft wants to put a gpu shim in the linux kernel so they can port directx12, but only to work in WSL2, and only with compute or offscreen render?

cool. let's take their code and rework it to use drm as a backend, implement swapchain stuff to get it rendering to display, install their userland gpu driver and, and figure out how to make wine/proton use the real directx12 software stack

@ky0ko yeah, i think the one resource that the foss ecosystem will never run out of is dev ingenuity and thankfully GPL remains fairly bulletproof when it comes to actually kernel code

@tindall one problem with kernel code is there is still a concern of patent infection, which is one thing microsoft is being accused of with the recent patch, until there is proof otherwise

@ky0ko @tindall don't WINE/Proton already use the "real" hardware stack? they aren't converting to GL or VK afaik

@lightdark You are confusing this with "Wine-Nine", a 'true' driver implementation of D3D9. Wine and Proton with DXVK are translating D3D calls to OGL or Vulkan. And they are pretty fantastic nowadays, D3D12 support should also get finished this year.

@ky0ko @tindall

@frumble @ky0ko @tindall Ah, that makes sense. And yeah, as far as I recall, DX has quite an overhead compared to GL/VK and as I recall the performance can be on par or better just doing translation instead of real DX support

That may just have been in Valve's case though and not for all workloads

@lightdark @ky0ko @tindall they are in fact converting to Vulkan and OpenGL. DXVK is to Vulkan, and I forget the name of the older project using GL

@ky0ko make linux a licensing nightmare. would work just as well.

@ky0ko @tindall I second this. Microsoft should fuck off from Linux, but they won't do it until we tell them to do so

@ky0ko Don't forget the development of Proton and complimentary stuff, it's a pretty hard blow to Microsoft dominance. All things being equal, you don't _NEED_ Windows to be a gamer anymore.

(of course, they combat it with DRM and anti-cheats, but still)


@ky0ko @tindall Just this morning on the birdsite I was reading a whole thread of people who spend a lot of time advocating for Linux also complaining that those who take issue with Microsoft are just "toxic", make the Linux community look bad, and are ungrateful for Microsoft's contributions.


What is the move that's happening this week to step into the extend phase? Is it the DirectX thing?


Competed with them years ago, never forgot the lessons. As soon as they bought github I moved all my projects off to my own Fossil SCM server:

(What is an "EEE"?)

@vandys @tindall

"Embrace, Extend, Exterminate", Microsoft's modus operandi. Find an industry-standard, add proprietary software to it, become the de-facto standard, then flex the monopoly power.

@tindall maybe have a little more trust in Open Source licenses and Free Desktop projects like Gnome. Microsoft can do whatever the hell they want, they have no power here. And I find it pretty nice that they are getting into Linux after all.

@strider I believe that's a naive understanding of the situation. Similar tactics killed XMPP, despite many implementations being GPL.

@tindall XMPP isn't really dead, it didn't go anywhere. But yeah, Facebook and Google stopped using it so that was a major blow to its popularity. Mostly because there weren't any Open Source project using it that massively caught on.

@tindall I could say the same about Open Street Map. It's still around but the only real users are big corporations. It's missing a good product that's community based.

@strider @tindall open licenses are no good if Microsoft controls the entire community space, aka github

@operand @tindall github has never been and never will be the entire community space. The entire point of git is that it's decentralized. I've moved my project from launchpad to github and I could move it from github to gitlab if I ever needed to.

@operand @tindall the whole thought process in building open source software is having trust in a system that doesn't have a 95% market share...

@strider @tindall it effectively is the entire community space for a ton of projects, though. and even if Microsoft doesn't actively exploit this, the fact that new developers are encouraged to never leave the Microsoft bubble is another tactic in their EEE arsenal.

@strider @tindall centralizing all community management aspects around github is one of the worst things to ever happen to open source software.

@operand @tindall having a massively used platform for open source development is certainly not a bad aspect. I haven't noticed any change since the MS acquisition, except that private repos are now free so I can stop paying... Also, in 2007, people were freaking out about Microsoft suing every Mono user in existence. Now, the co-founder of the Mono company, Ximian Nat Friedman is CEO of Github...

@operand @tindall EEE is a relic from the 90s. Microsoft now understood that geeks like Linux. They also understood that Linux is very powerful for cloud computing. They don't want developers to build things on Macs like this is the case now, they want developers on Windows 10. They are not going to mess with Linux since they are bringing a lot of their infrastructure onto it. Microsoft can build whatever they want, it will not harm the broader Open Source community

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