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The Image Manipulation Program maintainers use a lot of branding for their program with something both sexual and offensive to a minority.

When called on it, they tell people to fork.

When people fork it, they are ridiculed and insulted.

(Referring, here, to phoronix.com/forums/forum/phor )

Tell me again how FOSS (which I love and use and contribute to!) has a culture that is totally normal and not just a playground for hateful nerdboys?

The "arguments" here, by the way, all amount to one of a few things.

1. All words are offensive to someone. (Patently untrue.)

2. I'm disabled and this isn't offensive to me. (Not relevant.)

3. Forking a GPL project and changing the name is evil. (Nonsensical, as far as I can tell.)

4. Nobody should ever be upset when someone uses a slur that refers to them.

This last is perhaps the most concerning - and yet, quite common.

@tindall Re: #3, also none of these guys lost their shit at the rebrand-forks of Firefox like Iceweasel or whatever, so...

@tindall

4. Disturbs me in ways that I did not think were possible.

That said all of those points, are very trash excuse. None of them have any kind of validity.
The fact that they get rehashed over and over and over again, angers me. These people are making floss look bad, I cannot and will not accept that.

@duvjones @tindall gimp could rename their project to imp and have the logo be a imp with the magic wand being a paint brush. missed opportunity... or if they couldn't bare to drop the gnu part, they could do g-imp and have the imp be a gnu, but that might be slightly less attractive. :)
@jorge_jbs @tindall @duvjones maybe the imp should wear a beret too. :) also, it can't be too similar to Tinkerbell or Disney will come knocking.

@ITwrx @tindall
GIMP as a name is neither here nor their to me, I get that because of the abrevation... it looks assocated to the word gimp and can be taken as insulting.
Just a sad coincidence, and ultimately it would be up to the core developers to change the name if they have an issue with it.
So far they haven't, so I guess they will live with it as the program continues it's massive overhaul.

@tindall it is really exhausting that these arguments have been repeated for decades despite not being good at all

@tindall @maloki

Because very few of those users, if any, seriously contribute to any project let alone GIMP.

It's a fork, if they have the people-power... It will keep going. If not... It won't. And to be honest, I am not sure that Glimpse will survive, GIMP itself has issues with contributers if only because what they are doing is not easy to jump into. Glimpse will has to contend with the same problem.
It's not just an image/marketing issue.

@tindall @maloki @duvjones
@tindall @maloki @duvjones
But aside from that elephant in the room, the core devs of this Glimpse can do as they please.

If they hit the big 1.0 and they're in a good state, then open source good to have them around. If not, they're just yet another abandoned fork.
I don't see the point in raising a fuss over it simply because the devs wanted another name, there are bigger issues to contend with.

@tindall what do you mean by "a lot of branding"? isn't it just the name of the project

@nik the name of the project, which is shown in offensive acronym form in a big unskippable splash screen, in the title, etc etc

@tindall ah.

I understand the objection to using it in the application GUI but I feel like an executable name that's the full application name would just be clunky...

@nik Totally! I don't want to re-live this whole conversation here - suffice it to say that much ink was shed on this topic - but the ultimate resolution was that the software should be re-branded entirely. Hence Glimpse, which recently cut its first release.

@tindall regardless of the arguments for/against renaming it I don't see there being much of a point in forking it if contributions don't start coming in towards glimpse, lest glimpse just stays tracked to gimp master aside from find/replacing the branding in the codebase....it wouldn't be a shift in the project in that case, just some non developers (meaning, not actually contributing to functionality) repackaging others' code

@nik yeah! This is one really nice thing about the name change forcing a fork - there are changes that would (imo anyway) benefit UX massively that are blocked on maintainer stubbornness, which will hopefully be resolved in Glimpse

In either case though, I can pitch Glimpse to my design professor. I could not do that for GIMP without being dismissed out of hand.

@nik but my point in this thread is one I think you're kind of missing. The devs if GIMP justify their stubbornness with "if you don't like it, fork it". Someone called their bluff and now lots of people (you included!) are trying to tell them not to do that.

It's possibly worth examining why that is.

@tindall I guess I just am wary of a fork being nothing but a branding change, which to me seems like wasted effort (personally, maybe not so for others)

I think a fork that works on actual software development that the GIMP maintainers don't want upstream would be for good reason though

@nik but isn't the whole pitch of FOSS "if you don't like it you can change it"?

These people didn't like it. They changed it. Now they can use it, and so can I. Why does it need to be more than that?

@nik (it's also worth pointing out that upstream rejects changes intended to make white labelling/rebranding easier even if they don't actually change the branding, so it's hard to argue that individuals or distributions should do branding changes, as we often see in e.g. Firefox)

@tindall @nik 100% this.

As an aside, we are planning to make UX changes.

@brainblasted @tindall @nik I personally don't care about the names either way. But if this leads to an improvement of Gimp's abysmal UI then I'm all in favour.

@tindall honestly surprised to hear that GIMP would be dismissed just for the name, but it would be cool to have QoL improvements

@nik what can I tell you. Everyone says they're surprised. Go to your boss or prof or local library and say "I'd like to install the GIMP on your computer" and tell me what happens. I'll give you odds it ain't great.

@tindall idk I got GIMP deployed at my high school no problem

@nik that's awesome, thank you for spreading Foss in the world and I'm glad nobody got in a tizzy about it!

I've not had that experience, and I suspect it's somewhat exceptional.

@nik @tindall I think it depends highly on cultural context. There are clearly some places where the name is controversial. It seems to be very US-centric, I believe as I have lived in both Europe and Asia and never seen this being controversial.

This does remind me of the time when Honda released a car which turned out to not sell very well in my home country (Sweden). They didn't realise that model the name translated to "Cunt".

@loke yeah, that's a hilarious incident

Gotta be careful if you're distributing stuff internationally!

@tindall @nik These problems seem to be english-speaking country specific, it's not like whole world speaks english.
Gimp and LO were deployed at my university and school.
Also your situation sounds weird. If you need to edit images, program name rarely is the thing that matters.

@nesc @nik yes. Sadly, I live in one of those English speaking countries, and the issue isn't that _I_ have to edit images - the issue is that design classes here are taught exclusively in Photoshop, including stuff like quizzes on the function of different buttons!

I tried proposing that we use a free and open image editor and was told we couldn't use "amateur software with a disgusting name".

Yes, I think the prof was wrong. And yet, how do I solve that?

@nesc @nik but you, too, are missing the point. It's free software! The right of forking and going your own way is a fundamental part of the whole point of making something GPL licensed!

The only reason people are shitting on Glimpse is because they love to find the specter of eeeeeeevil SJWism anywhere they can.

@nesc @nik hell, I could fork Linux and call it Zorbfroz and get not one peep out of anyone. But if I called it "Femux, the feminist kernel" you absolute grognards would freak the fuck out. Calm down. It's just software.

@tindall @nesc @nik no one is "freaking the fuck out", some people think that forking a project to change the name because they don't like it is somewhat stupid - just like some people think that forking Tusky and rebranding it as Spinster or Librem Social is somewhat stupid. That doesn't mean you can't do it.

@mewmew @nik @nesc idk, if people said to someone's face the things they're saying in the linked thread I think that would qualify as freaking out...

@tindall @nik @nesc on the first page I can only see one thing that could by classified as "freaking out"

(and when you start by attacking the name of a project some people care about, it's understandable they'd be upset)

@mewmew @tindall @nik @nesc ...first point of order, "stupid" is a slur, if you want to have this convo, get your vocabulary up to a reasonably non-offensive level.

Second, you're saying "this isn't a problem because I've never experienced the negatives of what you're describing", which is both an anecdotal logical fallacy and expressing ignorance of how marginalized individuals are disadvantaged in tech.

Thirdly, equating forking for the sole purpose of eliminating slurs and core developer reticence to accept much-needed usability and accessibility improvements with forking because a platform won't support nazis is...a ridiculous level of attempted gaslighting.

Equating fascists with marginalized individuals is bad, and you should lay off the death sticks and rethink your life a bit.

The move to #Glimpse is necessary and good for everyone who has ever been called a "gimp".

If you're outside that group, shut up and #DeleteGimp.

@tindall @nik
Well, if you have classes that include quizzes on button positions, you have bigger problems than program names. 😿
I am all for forking, just won't recommend this fork for a few years. If it will be still around in a year or two, good.
Also please stop being this antagonistic I am not even against glimpse and you. 😅

@nesc @nik that's fair! The "you" there was unnecessary, I should have said "some absolute grognards" :P

@tindall @nesc @nik Ah, this is meaningful background! The professor is closed-minded and doesn't understand open-source software at all. The name change might not be enough to solve this, even if it's a steep in the right direction.

GIMP, Blender, Ardour, Rosegarden, and and Inkscape have made major impacts on media production, but a lot of people remain ignorant of how useful they are at any price. This is another big issue limiting GIMP acceptance, including by your instructor.

@hutchinsonmini Indeed. The name change is an incremental improvement only - it is, as they say, necessary but not sufficient.

@tindall tbh I'll put windows xp in a VM and use MSPaint before I use that program again because of all the vitriol I see around it coming from the hateful nerdboys

@tindall I, for one, have started using builds from their Git tree to as I think the #Glimpse team are right to carry on with the fork and if I get to catch some issue I would rather report bugs and/or contribute small patches to them. Also the Glimpse branding is much visually pleasant to me, and looks more like there's a group of actual digital artists involved, instead of being programmer art (not that GIMP's was, but my feeling is a bit like that). I hope the project succeeds!

@tindall I’m so glad someone finally forked & renamed it. This is one of FOSS’s greatest strengths, and it seems like anyone who criticizes it has a narrow idea of freedom.

@tindall @elementary This reminds me of the @debian project rebranding @mozilla software to remove trademarks, which is "silly" but a legitimate intellectual property issue for @gnu. So there is precedent for a fork by the #GNU camp specifically to rename the software.

@tindall May be it was unintentional, or not. I really don't care as long as it written in CAPS. The *thing* you are referring does not comes in my mind.

PS: English is my second language.

@tindall that thing that concerns me more is @kde software naming. Like they may call icon as "ikon" as it has "k" in it. :blobsweats:

@tindall wow, this is so true, already stop to follow the work of some blogs by the butthurt of them. They can't stand for a fork? Like they are the owner of the soft, when it is a f*****g open thing.

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