«In 1993, John Gilmore famously said that "The Internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." That was technically true when he said it but only because the routing structure of the Internet was so distributed. As centralization increases, the Internet loses that robustness, and censorship by governments and companies becomes easier.»
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2018/06/russian_censors.html
@kensanata
> only because the routing structure of the Internet
At that time, the Internet was Usenet, a multicast system with distributed routing mechanism builtin. Now it's the World Wide Web, a unicast system with no distribution, not even Mastodon. It's the time for a distributed infrastructure to take control the Internet again.
@niconiconi @kensanata I’m going to say it.
No, I won’t. I won’t say.
Oh, alright...
What we need is... blockchain!
(Ducks from flying objects.)
@Shufei @niconiconi you definitely need to duck! 😂
But regarding resilience of the network: I really like the Cold War idea of the Internet. It can take blows. You connect to friendly nodes you trust. You disconnect misbehaving nodes. Nodes are small and postmasters are real people that help run the system.
@kensanata @niconiconi It’s still the only foundation level model which makes sense. And yet, vetting that web of trust is one of the key weaknesses which needs a real fresh look.
And soon. It looks like we may need a Fidonet reboot just to do anything we used to outside the corporate state panopticon.
> Fidonet reboot
many people want to literally revive the old protocols and networks beyond retrocomputing purpose, e.g Gopher, NNTP, but none of them supports things like global hash identifier, public key cryptography, onion routing, P2P/Mesh net, <joke>blockchain</joke> or any modern inventions at the protocol layer.
IMHO, old protocols are dead, and we should leave it alone, what should be revived is __the philosophy__ of the old protocols, in our new systems.
@niconiconi @Shufei Actually gopher over Tor works, @tomasino does it; and gopher over TLS also works, I do it; but yeah, other things don’t work like that. And securing emails is super cumbersome and people rarely do it. And I don’t even know about people trying to revive nntp. I agree about the philosophy of the old Internet.
@kensanata @niconiconi @Shufei gopher is compatible with mesh networks as well. What gopher does not have on it's own is smart support for secure two way data transfer. I think that's okay. That's not what it's for.
Moreover, I think dusting off old protocols and composing them with newer tech is a brilliant way to move forward. The old stuff is simple and easy grok. Layer on well tested systems like Tor and you get something pretty fantastic.
@tomasino @kensanata @niconiconi Is there a name for this sort of effect, when old tech becomes revitalized or at least fertilizes inspiration in a new context?
I’ve noticed it in ham radio, where the preservation of retro tech is often reputed as overly stodgy, yet allows for a lot of weird cross fertilization into novel ideas when people play with in new ways.
@Shufei @kensanata @niconiconi Hrm, something like upcycleing maybe? I wouldn't mind having a term for it if you find one. That would be convenient.
@tomasino @kensanata @niconiconi How about “retromixing” or “retrocycling”? Hmm...
@Shufei @kensanata @niconiconi retrocycling makes me think about penny-farthing races, and that's great
@tomasino @kensanata @niconiconi @Shufei you are totally right i love the simplicity of it
@tomasino @kensanata @niconiconi @Shufei a gopher mastodon gateway would be great or even twtxt but it doesn't get this much traffic :(
@m3tti @kensanata @niconiconi @Shufei I used to have a twtxt thing on my gopher hole, and there is a gateway to it around, but like you mentioned there isn't much content. It got confusing as to what went there vs mastodon or my phlog, so I got rid of it.
@m3tti @kensanata @niconiconi @Shufei Someone on here has a working gopher/mastodon bridge working too. I forget which one of my #gopher folks it was, though. You listening?
@saper @Shufei @niconiconi @kensanata @m3tti No, though there is great integration there too. Someone around here wrote a direct bridge so (s)he could browse her timelines and post through their gopher hole directly.
@tomasino @m3tti @kensanata @niconiconi I’d fancy to put that up.
@Shufei @tomasino @m3tti @kensanata @niconiconi pleroma does have a gopher interface...
@ckeen Now I want to know how posting works!
@kensanata idk whether it supports posting, I still don't have an account on a pleroma instance. @lain ?
@kensanata @crc sounds like something he'd do. In Forth. ;)
@kensanata nice find!
@tomasino @kensanata This one is (currently) in Python, though l have an unreleased front end in Forth.
@kensanata @tomasino it allows both reading and posting. I'm planning a bunch of improvements, but all of my projects are on hold until my carpal tunnel issues improve.
@crc @kensanata I hope you get some relief soon. Dvorak + contact juggling helped me a lot
@tomasino @kensanata I'm 100% dvorak now. This, a switch back to more ergo split keyboards (Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic) and use of various braces throughout the day are helping. I'll look into contact juggling.
I think a big issue is that I'm spending 10+ hours a day on the computer at work. If I do projects or stuff for the side business, that goes up to 18-20. I'm hoping an upcoming break of 9 days at the start of July will help a lot.
> Actually gopher over Tor works, @tomasino does it; and gopher over TLS also works, I do it
I already expected this perspective, so in the original post I mentioned "protocol layer" to nullify it...
You are just replacing the transport layer. Yes it's a neat hack, and a good way to retrofit protocols on the modern Internet.
But does not really incorporate any new inventions to the protocols. If this protocol is going to be the next BBS, it is not enough IMHO.
@niconiconi @kensanata That was my intimation, natch.
But don’t dare knock Gopher! Gopher is the future, I just know it! (Gopher is love.) I’m going to come out with an IPO for a gopher and FTP over IPX network. Then Google shall fall and you’ll be sorry! 👸🏽