Follow

y'ever think about how so many web devs' heads ended up so far up their own asses that firefox had to make a dedicated "just discard all the styling so you can actually read it" button

· SubwayTooter · 8 · 40 · 48
@lifning Yeah... The fact that they ascended "None is an option in the list of alternate stylesheets in the view menu" to a fully blown feature is kind of a damning criticism of design.

@Trysdyn @lifning where is this mythical "alternate stylesheets view menu" that I might partake of alternate/no stylesheets without using something like stylus to edit after the fact

@falkreon @lifning View => Page Style => [all stylesheets provided in the <head> tag are listed, along with 'no style']

@impiaaa @dantheclamman the salient part is that it became a first-class browser feature, not just an extension for those with the knowledge to seek it out - this became such a widespread issue that the default experience now has to include it

@lifning A few of us over on Hackers.Town (I think maybe @nobody or maybe @remotenemesis) and some others from Sunbeam.City were discussing a movement similar to brutalist-web.design where we build sites that _actually work_ from now on.

@garrett
Can we do this, please? By do this, I mean create a website with specific guidance for creating minimally invasive web designs with discussion about patterns and antipatterns, use cases to support with leaner designs, and how to avoid corporate toolkits when faced with the demands of capital?

This isn't "just solarpunk." It's global, but global efforts are impeded by hierarchy
@lifning @nobody@hackers.town @remotenemesis@hackers.town

@AceNovo Yeah I'm actually working on exactly that.

It will be at mnmlwbdsgn.com

@lifning

@garrett
Great! It's on my to-do list, but 3 years down and growing. Here's a partial list of stakeholders:

- The global poor
- The first world poor
- Rural internet users
- Retro computing users
- Admins with headless systems
- Privacy users
- Minimalists and conservationists like solarpunk communities
- The Knight Who Cannot Sing (TBL) and his squires

Berners-Lee is mostly concerned with global poverty, but it was a fun mention

Nice domain name 😎
@lifning

@AceNovo Fantastic. Please feel free to email me with anything you want seen on the site. mnmlwbdsgn@pm.me and be sure to include what attribution you want.

This is a high priority for me this year so there will be a lot of content growth on that site in the coming months.

@lifning

@garrett
The main thing about these Mastoland conversation is that people "don't see why" things aren't done differently. Maybe there's a detailed analysis of the negative cycles feeding it or a simple explanation like "capitalism," but the step to bring the benefits of analysis to the Masto that is building things is the thing most often missing

There's a place for that, but mostly we need to combat "nudge" by creating simple alternatives to those systems

@AceNovo I'm working on an article for the site that does a deep dive on the environmental impact of heavy loading website and why my vision of "mnmlwbdsgn" is better from that aspect.

I've also written why it's better from a pro-capitalist aspect as well. mnmlwbdsgn is better for SEO, it's better for your users, and it's better for sales.

It puts your content front and center, which is what the web is for.

For something to take off, gotta convince the capitalists to be on board too.

@garrett
You have a call to action on your "I don't want to market anymore" website 😂

The action is missing in a lot of social action. Sometimes it's deliberate, as in "you don't get to click a button to not feel like a racist POS" in a blog. It's less not knowing to do it these days than it is a reaction to the prevalence of one click responses and not knowing how to composite initiation to complex behavior changes

In software design, we need to provide alternative workflows

@AceNovo Dude let me tell you something about being a marketer for 10+ years.

Old habits die hard.

Also I made that page back when I was still in a mostly capitalist mindset.

But to be honest, my marketing skills are what can bring niche shit to mainstream. I know how to sell the idea to the masses because I've been selling ideas to masses for a decade.

@garrett
Well, you're in the best possible community for antimarketing to be a viable outreach strategy

I map UX to desirable community outcomes. My plan was to host something wiki-like and get a community together to cover the broadest base of use cases then build tutorials and tools to support those. A blog with comments could serve as a lighter process for gathering feedback if you prefer

Where do you want to start?

@AceNovo omg yes this is exactly what I’m talking about. I need to do some brainstorming on this.

@AceNovo The first thing that needs to be done is the standards decided. We need the “What” before we can do the “why” and the “how”.

Or I suppose we could start with the “why”, and move to the “What” and then the “how”.

@garrett
The what is an approach to web architecture consistent with the original design goals of the www for accessible information distribution that is underserved by current publisher-driven access patterns

@AceNovo As far as action missing in social action, I totally agree. There’s a lot of keyboard warriors with lots to say but what we need are compilations of damning evidence, and measurable actionable goals with step by step guides to accomplish each one.

Much of which can be written without leaving the comfort of our own computers.

Anyone who sits around complaining on mastodon about how Amazon mistreats their workers can build a free .md page on github with a compilation of evidence.

@garrett
Measurement and documentation is a great place to meet liberals halfway. I believe capitalist systems are inherently flawed based on the definition of capitalism, but that wasn't always the case. Every person has their own standard of evidence, and placing the onus on liberals to quantify and fix the problems in the institutions they want to preserve is a way to provide mitigation and focus on developing alternatives while those institutions crumble

@garrett @lifning @nobody @remotenemesis I'm working _REALLY_ hard to provide a super nice interface for Koype that goes by those ideals first - I use NoScript and uBlock so dogfooding the no-JavaScript interface is important for me.

@jalcine I use uBlock and Privacy Badger so if it (any website) doesn't work in those I won't use it.

Unfortunately even my own site ApproachingUtopia.com has some issues w/ them so I need to work on that, but it's mostly my email newsletter signup forms that don't work.

@lifning @nobody @remotenemesis

@jalcine @garrett @lifning @nobody thank you for the link. Very much along this line of thinking of web sites not web applications....

@remotenemesis @jalcine @lifning @nobody yeah this is exactly the kind of stuff we are talking about doing! Good find! CC: @AceNovo

@remotenemesis @jalcine @lifning @nobody @AceNovo If I can’t load your website on my old school Kindle, it’s not good enough!

@remotenemesis @jalcine @lifning @nobody @AceNovo Another thought: the size of websites and U/D data is the biggest thing that will stop/is stopping mesh nets from becoming a viable alternative to the Internet (aside from ease of use, which I’m sure we aren’t far away from “plug and play”). Our idea solves that problem.

@garrett
Local storage is now incredibly cheap compared to the last time that bandwidth was expensive.

Store and forward all the things!
@jalcine @lifning @nobody @AceNovo

@garrett
There's top down stuff going on in this area, but HTML5 served Berners-Lee notice about the limits of his influence and corporate players are going to continue to advantage their own strategies.

I'm sure there's grass roots efforts, too, but something originating on Masto has certain advantages like discoverability and access to standards writers
@remotenemesis@hackers.town @jalcine @lifning @nobody@hackers.town

@lifning my favourite button. if that doesn't work, that little × helps

@lifning

Saves my butt on mobile when looking at brutal sites that don't scale to my screen size too.

@lifning I recall the headaches web devs had back in the late 90s/early 00s... I wonder if it was just a collective "Fuck it, do what you want" to their customers. And when you get down to individual businesses and usability... well, you're fscked.

@lifning And thinking ont hat a bit further, one of the BIG headaches was customers waffling and changing specs. Much (most?) of the newer web stuff offers zero value to the end user... but makes it super easy to change presentation. And once it became easier to change shit, and there wasn't anyone pumping the brakes, I think it really got out of hand. So now we have an ecosystem around bad decisions and disabling those bad decisions. A closed loop of idiocy and bad UX.

@lifning It's kinda worse than that, the button also (hueristically) discards much of the page's HTML too.

Sign in to participate in the conversation
Cybrespace

cybrespace: the social hub of the information superhighway

jack in to the mastodon fediverse today and surf the dataflow through our cybrepunk, slightly glitchy web portal