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languages shouldn't have official discord "servers" tbh.
if the discussion isn't available on a public platform, you fucked up.

· brutaldon · 3 · 19 · 29

@hirojin YUP

also applies to the Idris Slack and Google Groups, but at least the latter works as a mailing list, albeit a pretty crappy one (what with all the "this email is from Google Groups" signatures. i hate having to scroll past those.)

@grainloom Yeah, would be nice if the userops for irc/matrix/xmpp was good enough, and perceived as good enough, that projects dare run their own without risking a maintenance burden. But when even Mozilla gave up ...

@clacke Mozilla bundles quite a bit of unnecessary crap with their browser, so I don't value their opinion quite as much as I wish I could.

@grainloom For me it turns into, "wow, Mozilla has hundreds of people and hosts these services I don't even want, but they can't even run an IRC server", which makes me think an IRC server should probably be made easier to host.

@clacke why not Matrix with an IRC bridge? pmOS does that AFAIK.

@clacke @grainloom

Is anyone on the fedi hosting an irc server? thats an interesting question, someone must be right

@liaizon @clacke Matrix and XMPP servers definitely exist, not sure about IRC

@grainloom @clacke tons of those for sure, I have even seen people talking about hosting FIDOnet stuff here but not yet IRC

@grainloom @liaizon @clacke i once tried to come up with an out-of-the-box way to set up an xmpp server that authenticates against Mastodon accounts on the same domain so I could try and talk more masto admins into setting up xmpp but it was a huge pain that I couldn't get to work in a bolt-on way that didn't require modifying stock mastodon :(

@anna @grainloom @clacke that would be awesome I wonder if anyone else has worked on such a thing

@xj9 @feld @grainloom @clacke @anna oh thats awesome, you know anyone who has this setup already?

@feld @xj9 @anna @clacke @grainloom @liaizon

Do you have any documentation on how the authentication is handled? If I'm reading this right, pleroma is the authenticator and handles all of the auth requests?
@feld @anna @grainloom @xj9 @liaizon

> WhatsApp, the most widely known Erlang based messaging system was a significant project we contributed to in part.

www.erlang-solutions.com/indus…

@feld @grainloom @clacke @xj9 @anna tagging @adz in this cause we were talking about how to get #e2e working in the fediverse

@grainloom @feld @clacke @xj9 @anna @adz encrypted direct messages, and having direct messages just routed through xmpp is one option.

@liaizon @feld @grainloom @clacke @xj9 @anna @320x200 I have this setup on blob.cat - it wasn't necessarily easy to do (because the guides for it aren't written well), coffee-and-dreams.uk/tutorials helped me

@mewmew @feld @grainloom @clacke @xj9 @anna @320x200 maybe you’d want to write up a quick guild? have a lot of folks really excited about this idea

@liaizon @grainloom @clacke As you can see by the replies so far, pleroma admins tend to be a bit more adventurous and willing to do this kind of thing, and making modifications to pleroma is a matter of course. most mastodon admins don't want to or aren't where they feel comfortable running something that's not stock, so i really wanted to find a bolt-on way to do it that just involved following a recipe. couldn't do it without at least modifying doorkeeper tho :(

@liaizon @clacke @grainloom I used to host one for internal work chat. Wasn't that hard.

@liaizon @clacke @grainloom IRC has several drawbacks. I find XMPP more interesting as a chat tool. If you install Yunohost on a VPS you get email and XMPP (with LDAP for users) with the base install. Really easy to install for Linux sysadmin starters, so that is not a threshold to hold one back. However, installing, configuring and maintaining an IRC server is harder.

@liaizon @clacke @grainloom I have a private irc server, yes.

I use unrealircd, which is under active development.

In general, when I hear "irc has drawbacks" that's all I hear, I never hear what they are, and if questioned, the person backpedals like _mad_ to get away from actually having to say they can't only use text to speak to others, they need to be able to post gifs and memes to express themselves.

Last time I tried to use Matrix, I was directed to Google Captcha. Fsck that.

I ran an xmpp server for a bit, but as the number of people using it was exactly 1, and that person was available on irc, I stopped wasting my time with that.

We use rocketchat at work, and I wish the admins would install the irssi support for it so I could have a proper interface, but... oh well (:

@Truck @liaizon @clacke the only real problem i have with it is that multiple active connections with the same nick are unnecessarily complicated. and i guess an easier way to look up history would be nice.

@grainloom @liaizon @clacke Ah, yes - multiple irc _networks_ - and now we step away from "irc has issues" to "irc deployments have issues."

On this I can agree.

I can also state that this is a result of something I saw back in the day - the original efnet split (: It was 100% political, 100% drama, and the engineering result was to take the ball and go home.

I solve this by using multiple connections and tmux, but I can see where this would be a drawback if one needed to NOT separate things by task/purpose. I do that, which means it is perfect for my use case.

I'm not sure a federated irc setup would solve the issue, but it would be interesting to _try._

(Also, this may be something that ircv3 is trying to address. Not sure, just know that it exists and unreal's development team is part of that.)
ircv3.net/

@Truck @grainloom @liaizon @clacke what's up with IRCv3 anyway? I don't know if there's any progress and I certainly don't know who's going to adopt it at this rate.

@polychrome @grainloom @liaizon @clacke I haven't needed to check in on it, but as I get updates from the Unrealircd team about once a month or so (as I said, active development) there are casual references to it every so often.

I haven't needed it - our network remains small by design - but if I were looking to deploy large scale irc services I'd be looking at it closely.

At some point I'll likely look at it when I read about "this is an ircv3 design item, and it will significantly change the way things operate, so please read up on this before deploying anything in the next major version."

@grainloom @Truck @liaizon @clacke that's pretty much it - support for multiple devices under the same Nick and recent history keeping for when coming back on a device that hasn't been on for awhile.

Both are solved by bouncers but they're not easy to set up. Not *hard*, but certainly not easy.

@polychrome @grainloom @Truck @liaizon @clacke my client solves this by running on a server, and i can connect from my work laptops, and my phone

@hirojin @polychrome @grainloom @Truck @clacke I love that the dev of The Lounge just commented on this thread. thanks you rock. The Lounge is great

@liaizon @polychrome @grainloom @Truck @clacke how did you draw the conclusion that I'm the dev of the Lounge??

(i do a lot FLOSS, but almost all of it is backend / server / DevOps)

@hirojin oh haha I read "my client" as in the "client I made" not "the client I use"

I need sleep, I am on severe jetlag. disregard :)

@liaizon @hirojin I read it like that as well, and I am wide awake! 😃 Have a good rest.

@liaizon @hirojin I read "my client" as "the people I do contract work for". 😁

@clacke @liaizon i'm glad we've gotten all interpretations in now, i was worried somebody was missing out

@hirojin @liaizon @polychrome @grainloom @clacke Well, in my case, I misread "my client" as "I am the author."

English! It's never ambiguous! (:

Fairly sure in Finnish, this would not be ambiguous. But I also am only at level 1.5 on the 5 point scale of being able to speak/read a language with Finnish - where 5 is "native/fluent" and 3 is "can have a regular conversation but is limited in the phrasing they can use."

@hirojin @liaizon @polychrome @grainloom @clacke Yes. Though, given we were all speaking at a level which was more administrative / developer than "casual user," you can see where there was some context that you _could_ be the developer.

Now, just to be clear -

Does your company _develop_ that client, or just use it?

@Truck @liaizon @polychrome @grainloom @clacke my company is one person, me: igalic.co and i only use it. i don't know enough JavaScript to develop it, but if any of you do github.com/thelounge/thelounge … 😅

@hirojin @polychrome @grainloom @liaizon @clacke Just out of curiosity (as I see there's a Scandanavian channel, but not a Nordic channel, and as I'm sure you know - Finnish is NOT an Indo-European language) - any Finns using it?
(As, well, it would be very surprizing if they were not (: )

I may take some time and test this at some point, but as I have to remind myself regularly - I have to rest, as I am severely burnt out, so - not today. Though I would like to today (:

@Truck @liaizon @clacke @grainloom if you need gif and meme and whatnot support, that's all client side

what irc really needs is a stronger encryption, and authentication and moderation model, and that's a server side story, and a lot of servers are not going to bother with these things (i'm think Efnet, IRCnet here)

@hirojin @liaizon @clacke @grainloom This is actually one area that I know they're working on improving in ircv3.

Which I don't think efnet or ircnet will adopt (:

Freenode, however, likely will.

I'm not sold entirely on an authentication or moderation model, but then, I've been around it for 30 years so most items that fall into this category I have weathered the storms, and come out unscathed, but - as brought up in this conversation - when we get away from the "irc as a medium" and into the "ircd deployment" - cracks appear, and they are large cracks you can see through, and I will say "oh, yes, the door over there that people walk through, right, I forgot that wasn't originally a door."

This has been a good conversation about the shortcomings of the overall irc infrastructure, and not "I dislike text." This I can work with (:

@Truck @liaizon @clacke @grainloom
>> In general, when I hear "irc has drawbacks" that's all I hear, I never hear what they are.

Netsplits are uncool :(
Using SSL is a pain for confidential conversations, if you want to allow users to connect without SSL as well.
Then there is the take over attempts of channels risk.
Closing down your GUI irc client on the desktop and logging in again will make you start from scratch losing all history (No, we cannot expect every user to use ssh + irssi + screen).

@Ajz @liaizon @clacke @grainloom I haven't seen a netsplit in some time, but yes, they can be problematic. And the nick collision issue on rejoin has been solved, but not in the most user friendly way. So this is an infrastructure thing that I agree should be improved.

I'm just going to say that no one should use non-ssl in 2020. But, yes, this is a point that is difficult _if_ you want to expose your users to non-ssl. I do not encourage that choice (:

As an ircop, I can say "no, there isn't a takeover problem" but - YES, in a large scale setup - yes there is. And we are in 2020, so large scale is a thing.

And on the last issue, I have a similar "well, I will set up the user with a method that allows them t be always on if needed" solution, but this does not SCALE.

Thank you for providing actual points to consider. It really comes down to scale - irc implementations are sufficient for small scale. NOT largescale.

@Ajz @Truck @liaizon @clacke @grainloom There’s bouncers for the latter - including ones like Biboumi that translate to XMPP so you can use multiple clients with synced history at once.

I‘d say IRC is a good common demeanor that other protocols should be able to connect to, even if with a reduced feature set. And it’s mostly (or only) useful for discussions that happen out in the open anyway.

@grainloom @Ajz @Truck @liaizon @clacke Well, not really, as that would restrict a lot of use cases where it’s not necessary.

@js @Ajz @liaizon @clacke @grainloom Yes. This is _exactly_ it's use.

Out in the open conversations, and what other things should connect to for publication to the _open_ internet.

I'd list reasons why, but I'm sure anyone who would disagree with this would have a reason, and if that reason is important enough to mention - do so, and I'll see if I agree. (I imagine I will not (: One use case that I have that most people won't : most folks will want it to be accessable via phone. I expect at minimum I would be able to use it via my Amiga.)

@Truck @liaizon @clacke @grainloom the drawback that's the reason I don't use IRC is that it doesn't provide the scrollback history.

so if I close the client or it crashes or I shut down the computer or am switching between client devices (like phone and computer), IRC (and XMPP and a bunch of others) won't show me the correct scrollup.

other peoples' messages don't go above when I logged in and my messages are missing anything I said from another device/client.

I wish there was smthn OSS tho

@codepuppy @liaizon @clacke @grainloom And this I consider a _feature._

But it certainly could be made optional - setting a channel to be "ephemeral" for casual discussion - like in a bar, where you can speak freely and things just are on the wind and you don't have the stress of having to uphold some social standard - or "permanent" for actual discussion that _should_ be logged, like any serious discussion.

(I also know that this can be solved by various "bouncer" implementations, and of course tmux/screen. And I've offered friends the option of those - so yes, in MY case, I'm seeing a shortcoming and providing a choice of solutions - but : SCALE? No, this does not scale.)

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