@sir One of the major features of Flatpak is using container technology to make sure no matter the distro, the package is running in the same environment as the developer's machine, so there is no need to "tune for the environment."
For the anti-feature point, if you have problems with the source, you should fork it, not pretend you are distributing the app while in reality you are distributing something else.

@cagatayy @sir Hate to bang the Guix/Nix pan all the time (no i don't) but what you want is reproducable packages/environments, not containers.


@sir @cagatayy Well, it's a much more usable rolling release distro than any other I've tried. Guix, that is. Nix's tools could be better.
And its developers aren't elitists who joke about mentally ill homeless people.
Call me when another distro gets an equivalent of `guix environment`.

· · brutaldon · 1 · 1 · 5

@sir @cagatayy NixOS maybe, but Guix is not that complicated, nor are its developers or users FP elitists. But even Nix solved some very real problems that establishes package managers of the time failed to address.

@sir @cagatayy As someone who had pacman fuck up their bootloader due to a power outage, I welcomed anything that makes updates atomic. And being able to have conflicting versions of packages is also nice.

@sir @cagatayy It also makes parametric packages easy to work with. And the functional purity means you can provide binary caches for package variants. Undeclared dependencies not affecting build output is quite useful.

@sir @grainloom @cagatayy I'm very much a Guix advocate. We're developing an upstream distribution, based on this (still young), but in my opinion, fantastic package manager. That being said, I have to agree with Drew. For the majority, Linux = Ubuntu. Most people don't care about the technical details, or reproducible environments - nobody would be using Windows, or MacOS if that was the case. People want beautiful, no-brainer software, that helps them accomplish stuff without reading a manual.

@franz @sir @cagatayy I kinda agree with this but if someone's doing web development and have already installed a language specific package manager, then using Guix or Nix shouldn't be that hard for them and if they wanna distribute things with Flatpak and absolutely refuse to write a proper package instead, then I'd prefer guix pack instead of a blob that who knows what generated.

@grainloom @cagatayy @sir @franz The major difference between language-specific package managers and guix/nix is that the former generally:

- Work out of the box on Windows
- Are installable by non-root in an arbitrary location

I believe that at least one of buck/pants/bazel do this to some extent already today for some languages.

I hope we can one day have a guix-lite that while giving up on some features of full guix can fulfill the above two requirements and make cross-language deps normal rather than fringe, and stop new languages from inventing the 847th wheel.

And, of course, it should fit well with guix-full so that a real guix can benefit from the packaging work done for devs.
@grainloom @cagatayy @sir @franz Cool! So both Nix and Guix support PRoot. It's a bit awkward, but it checks the box.

Still need to cover all those Python devs on Windows. But maybe all of them will be on Linux on Windows sooner or later.

@clacke @cagatayy @sir @franz @grainloom RPM is working on rootless support, and there's a port of RPM with DNF to Windows in progress by the Midipix folks. I'm working on bringing it to macOS myself.

@Conan_Kudo dnf on Windows using minipix? Now I've heard everything. 😀

I hope Windows doesn't become a usable development platform before most of the devs have moved to Linux already.


Strictly speaking, the average person doesn't even know about Ubuntu. I would guess more people have heard about Android running on something called Linux (even if it isn't 100% true)

@grainloom @sir @cagatayy

> As someone who had pacman fuck up their bootloader due to a power outage, I welcomed anything that makes updates atomic.

I had (almost) the same thing happen to me, and it also dramatically increased my interest in #GuixSD, though I haven't made the time to try it out.

("Almost" because it wasn't a power outage, it was a WM crash. Which led me to switch to a more stable/simple windows manager (away from #stumpwm to #bspwm))

@grainloom @sir @cagatayy for this point, RPM-OSTree can be a good compromise here. It gives atomicity of image based installs while supporting package installs in a safe way.

@sir @grainloom @cagatayy

> I'll take 90% the stability for 10% the complexity any day of the week.

Yeah, me too if it's reducing complexity by 90% in return for reducing stability by 10%.

Out of curiosity, how much increased complexity (if any) would you accept for 10% more stability?

(Not that I have any idea how to measure either in practice…)

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