@grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle

... I think that's a very complex, delicate and personal issue that a mother should decide with the help her physician.

But this is a relatively rare issue: most abortions do not occur to save the mothers' lifes.

@Shamar @Wolf480pl @noelle
So until this magical promised land of yours comes true, what do you suggest those considering abortions do?

@grainloom @Shamar @Wolf480pl @noelle prior to widespread access to abortions and other forms of birth control, the acceptable approach was infanticide.

Abortions are much cheaper and less messy. Let's stick with them.

Meat can have a human genome without being a person. It can even have the potential to become a person without being a person. Consider the root of every hair on your head, for instance.

@grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle

Magical lands?

Did I say unicorn?

I remember I talked about logic, politics, economy and culture.
The last three are human artifacts that depends on humans.

In those cases where abortions is considered for fear, my suggestion is to refuse the conditioning of the surrounding mainstream capitalistic culture and fight for your right to reproduce.
Consider giving the child for adoption... whatever.

But don't let the riches win: you and your kid are humans!

@Shamar @Wolf480pl @noelle
Have you seen what poor families with lots of kids go through?
And you haven't really answered my question.
Until all those conditions you've listed are met, what are women to do?

@grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle

Fight to have those conditions met?

Give their children to adoptions?

Do you really think that the pain of poverty can be fixed with abortion?
The problem is not the number of kids, it's the lack of proper state and community support. That could be improved with proper politics and taxation.

And BTW, while I can support my family now, I grow up in a poor family as we lost my father when I was 10yo. We survived thanks to our uncle till I got a job.

@Shamar @Wolf480pl @noelle
Adoption only works if people can adopt and even that is not properly implemented everywhere.
Anyways, let me recap, correct me if I misunderstood:
what you suggest is that women who are in bad socioeconomic situations and are expecting a child that they (by their own admission) could not care for properly give birth regardless and either send the child off for adoption or raise them AND they should also fight to change society.

@Shamar @Wolf480pl @noelle
I think you are asking a bit too much.

Also, the case where the fetus is known to have serious genetic defects is imho not properly addressed. And Down is one of the better cases within that, at least the child doesn't die within hours after birth.

@grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle

What is the difference between a child that die after an hour, a week or an year because of genetic defects and one who die because of an incident at the same age?

To me, there is no difference.

As #humans they both share the same #right to live as me and you.

Note that this is a pretty important step in an oppressive system: once you accept to kill a child you can accept a bit more to kill other non productive people, such poors, ills...

@grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle

Then you wake up a day and you discover that this is the turn of unemployed people.

While I believe that human life is more important than anything else because of the deep richness and uniqueness of possibilities it raise, I'm not using religious arguments but #political ones.

I'm trying to share a broader overall vision of the matter, to help you see how much your opinions are actually internalisation of #oppressive #capitalism values.

@Shamar @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle

> having the right to safe income and sustain for the kids, having welcoming communities that actively help ...

World ain't like that. People ain't like that. Not everybody wants to be a parent, y'know. Especially by accident, tragic or otherwise. It doesn't make them bad, it just means they have different needs and priorities.

> God cannot help anyone

Because there is none. Fictional characters don't help people. People help people. And people ain't all goody two shoes, most of us humans are pretty toxic bastards, get over it.

> do yoy prefer the cheaper alternative: let them abort and forget them?

Yes, let them abort if they want to. Nobody said anything about "forgetting them": there's a lot of shit associated with rape that needs helping with. It's a sensible alternative.

If the woman decides to an abortion, let her have it. It is not your place to tell anyone what to do with their bodies and parts of it.

@Shamar @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle Also, mind you, abortion is not a fucking sport, it's an emergency measure, ALWAYS, no exception.
It's a traumatic and painful procedure, not even taking the social stigma that exists because of you and people like you.
Women turn to abortion only when all other options have been exhausted already.
When's the last time have you seen a woman getting pregnant and undergoing an abortion every goddamn Saturday just for the hell of it? I thought so.

@drequivalent @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle

I wonder if you have read what I wrote.

I have said that #abortion is a #collective and #social #murder, that #oppresses the women instead of letting them fully express their right to reproduce.

It's the same oppression that objectify women, either as production tools, as marketing tools and as a pleasure tool.

And I said that we should fight such oppression.

Where is the stigma?

@Shamar @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle A woman also has a right to NOT reproduce. Capisce? And sometimes there is just no option to fully express the right to not reproduce other than abortion.

Now, what you're saying just makes no sense whatsoever. When and how access and right to abortion infringes on a woman's right to reproduce? Do you see anyone vouching for mandatory abortion? Strawman much?

@drequivalent @grainloom @Wolf480pl @noelle

It's not actually mandated because it would break the particular narrative of #capitalism that let people call #oppression like #freedom.

Actually even in China, birth control did not #mandate female #abortions.

The result is the same.

If you don't give a woman the time, the support and the resources to grow a child, you force the abortion anyway.

In this US #democracy shows how similar it is to every other #totalitarianism.