Tried to get my partner into Mastodon, but the admins threatened to delete most of her posts because she didn't cite the original author of the random memes that were obviously impossible to determine the original source of. Pretty disappointed in the way it was handled TBH. More motivated than ever to start my own server.

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Especially bad because she only joined in the first place after I begged her to for weeks.

@rick_777 they reached out to me privately and gave me more details (which they didn't bother giving her). It's clear that it was a misunderstanding. Not to say what happened was acceptable, but they are talking about it in private with me.

@finn Well, I'm glad there's an effort. Hate to see misunderstandings grow into breakups.

Hope everything goes well, and if you still decide to make your own instance, go ahead! There's nothing wrong with federating :)

@dansup hi dan, happy to talk about this more offline (i.e. on discord lol) but putting in the modicum of effort needed to properly source content that people put their time into creating (even if it's "just jokes") has been a fundamental principle of since the very beginning

I deeply regret how this particular interaction went down, and I would do it differently if I had the chance, but there's not a lot of room for us to budge on this one.

@dansup that being said, there were a lot more factors that went into this then just unsourced content, and if it was just a matter of unsourced content alone, it would be a different discussion.

@nightpool Just want to let you know I was kidding with that hashtag, I have no idea what really happened. I would join his instance not because of this, but because his old StatusNet instance he setup in 2012 lead me to discover the fediverse.

@dansup always, always happy to see more mastodon instances in the world

@nightpool @dansup you should be clear that you didn't tell her there were any other factors. You told her that impossible to source memes are unacceptable and that if she didn't get a source for them you would start deleting her posts, and when she asked to be given a few days because were on vacation and roaming and was told no.

It was basically a blanket rejection of the content that she (and her followers) enjoyed.

@nightpool Honesty on why you banned my dear friend (who I didn't even realize was on Mastodon) would be appreciated. She isn't super technical, and I think you likely permanently scared her back to Facebook.

@dansup @finn #heckOffMemePolice is appropriate in this context IMO.

@bikecurious hey, we've been discussing the situation with finn over DM but just to clear some stuff up:

1) we didn't ban anybody
2) there were a lot of different things going on here, but the biggest one is that we were acting on multiple user complaints based on a lack of profile information, a lack of sources, and the framing of the content (anonymous reposts) that made it seem possibly automated or at the very least decidedly uninterested in interacting in the community.

@bikecurious Like finn said, there were a lot of miscommunications along the way, and going forward we're going to work harder to approach these situations much more compassionately as moderators. But we also want to be very strict about crediting people who create content, because it's a value that's important to us.

@nightpool Citing memes with dozens of people who have modified and edited said meme, mostly anonymously is an impossible task.

I don't know how expects people to cite sources for that content format considering how those that create and modify memes don't publicly acknowledge their modification of an existing meme or creation of a new meme in most cases.

@bikecurious sure, lots of things are derivative works. but "if you repost somebody's shit verbatim, you need to credit the person who created it" is a pretty far cry from "cite the entire genealogy of every image"

@nightpool Finding who "created" most memes is not an easy task. There is no git history, memes are often created on mediums other than the one people repost from (often private chat groups), and most of the popular memes are repeatedly reposted.

No one claims authorship for the vast majority of memes, and linking to the user who posted it on say Reddit or Twitter is not consistently the author or last modifier of said meme.

@bikecurious in practice, for most of the memes people post on here, it takes me 5 minutes with google reverse image search.

The way it normally goes down is that a new users posts something, i let them know that they can't post unsourced content, they tell me they don't know who made it, and then I find out who made it and send them the link. They then delete the post and remake it with the source link. In practice this works pretty well for most users, and it's rare i have to talk to the same user twice

@nightpool So your outsourcing original authorship to whatever Google Images or TinEye says? That is a solid way to get an incorrect citation!

@bikecurious are you trying to argue in bad faith now? Of course not. I use google images to do my own research, and then 9 times out of 10 I find 1) the earliest post is also 2) by someone who is pretty clearly the creator (asks for feedback, mentions what inspired it, etc etc)

@nightpool I'm not arguing in bad faith, merely stating what I've seen when attempting to find the root of a meme.

For unmodified memes what your describing is somewhat accurate, but deep fried memes and modified versions generally do not have that type of creation post asking for feedback or acknowledging that OP is the creator, and not just crossposting from another non-indexed source.

@nightpool That works for that particular meme, meanwhile there are lots of memes that don't have an inception thread like that.

You ignored my point in the prior comment, your expecting citations for each and every meme is unrealistic when many are modified and deep fried in private groups and later reposted to larger, public sites.

@finn Like you said, miscommunications all up and down the line. I talked about the memes because those were the things that were in direct violation of our guidelines, but i would have approached the situation completely differently if it looked like there was an actual person behind the account. It's my fault for making the assumption that the account was automated and we're going to work harder to be more compassionate as moderators going forward.

@finn honestly, the attitude that absolutely everything has to be cited or OC is profoundly annoying.

Some people like to point at infamous Twitter accounts (Archillect) that just repost content found from somewhere else, as if it were a terrible crime, and the only way to have sanctity is to either be absolutely original or be exhaustive in one's references.

I thought the sentiment of the Web was that copying isn't theft?


happy to talk about this further, but putting in the modicum of effort needed to properly source content that people put their time into creating has been a fundamental principle of since the very beginning.

More bluntly—just because you *can* be a dick doesn't mean you *should*. There's a wide swath of middle ground on copyright opinions between "nobody can use these words for the next 120 years without my permission" and

@deadsuperhero that being said, there were a lot more factors that went into this particular situation then just unsourced content, and if it was just a matter of unsourced content alone, it would be a completely different discussion.

@deadsuperhero @finn
I'm sure you can find a server that doesn't care, or just spin one up yourself.

Me, I *never* cite sources for random pictures I find on the internet. IDGAF who made it, and if someone does they can do that research themselves.

@greenjon she's not going to find a new server, she feels hurt by the whole thing. Basically good reminder why people suck, and why she didn't interact in public forums in the first place.

@finn I hear you. And that's a shame.

I never thought about it before, but at the moment I don't recall anyone *ever* citing the source for their pix on the fediverse. Maybe folks do and I don't notice it because I don't care, but I kinda think it's seldom done.
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