hey i'm really curious about gender-neutral pronouns in different languages. english has "they", plus a bunch of different neopronouns. what do you use in your language?
(boosts would be great to cast a wider net on this, thx)
@em I remember a bunch of English speakers thinking that "hen" was the word, translated into Swedish, that they were using and Americans were like UGH THAT iS A *FEMALE* CHICKEN
@em I would also like to see this. I know how it works in French and German, but I'm not in touch with enough trans/NB people in those groups to know what's used
@distel @gayhobbes @em Yeah, German is not great with gender-neutral anything.
It's not QUITE as bad as standard-French since in standard-German at least we have a word for "it", but still...
Most enbies I encounter use "es" ("it") or no pronouns at all.
I personally wouldn't mind just importing "they", and I find "sier" not for me, because I'm agender, not bigender (it's literally the words "she" and "he" mashed together) 😉
@Tobi @gayhobbes @em yeah, but "es" (it) is a pronoun used for animals and things, not a neutral human pronoun. and since queer people have been and still are dehumanized, I know some of them who have a problem using "it".
I also know the "no pronouns at all" preference, quite a few people I know use that.
other solutions include: change pronouns often, use the pronoun of the gender you were not assigned at birth (without passing as that gender) and importing "they".
@em In French we use 'iel', which is a mix of 'il' (he) and elle ('she'). It's a neologism that's pretty controversial
@rubah It's pretty complicated, it's used mostly by activists and it isn't "part of the dictionary", plus the Académie Française which sets the rules for the French language advised against it so it's a very politically charged word http://www.academie-francaise.fr/actualites/declaration-de-lacademie-francaise-sur-lecriture-dite-inclusive
@em You may want to look at Tagalog (Filipino). My Filipina SO, when speaking English, gets a little confused by gendered pronouns. In Tagalog, daughter is "anak na babae", child who is female, anak has no gender. I am not fluent in the language, sadly
@em standard Spanish doesn't have them, but there are ongoing efforts to promote gender-neutral Spanish and I think 'elle' is the most common gender-neutral pronoun
Sorry for the example, but I was curious to see how the localisations for #FinalFantasy IX handled a genderless character. English did "s/he" throughout and other languages just picked a gender one way or another (Spanish picked "ella").
There just isn't much of a cultural framework to handle this in the Spanish-speaking world. I suspect most Hispanophones enbies have had to forcibly pick a side.
@JordiGH yeah most languages don't have a neutral pronoun traditionally (unless they only have neutral pronouns), that's why i asked. there are enough enbies that i'm sure something exists in most languages already, even if it isn't very commonly accepted yet
@sigmaleph @em I haven't seen any of the artificial gender neutral pronouns for English pick up, and I've been paying attention since the mid 1990s. Only "they" seems to have any traction. I used to advocate Spivak pronouns which were the first I was exposed to and seemed easiest to me; "they" is next best thing.
Having to pick an artificial way in Spanish to inflect adjectives, pronouns, and participles for enbies makes me skeptical that the -e endings would pick up. Let's hope I'm wrong.
@em @sigmaleph I guess "ello" is neutral, but the neutral gender in Spanish only fits into certain syntactical categories, and is often confused with the morphologically similar masculine gender. This is when people are asked to consciously do a syntactic analysis; I'm not sure what people actually "perceive" naturally when they're not thinking about language.
For instance, we have some vestiges of animate gender in Spanish, and animate nouns cannot be neutral:
@em there's a few proposals for Spanish: l@s niñ@s, lⒶs niñⒶs, lxs niñxs and les niñes are all proposed alternatives with varying amounts of support; Japanese has no grammatical gender, so there the issue is more with gendered speech patterns than specific words
@jimpjorps hm ok, i think i've seen those written (at least l@s and lxs)
how would they be pronounced though?
@em there's a specific vowel sound that's recommended for the first three that's like halfway between a and o
@em @jimpjorps well, this is an active discussion right now. there's a lot of people who get uncomfortable when they read the x or @, others don't like the 'e', others insist that the masculine should remain as the neutral. there's no natural easy solution because everything has a gender (the objects, the adjectives, the verbs)... so any proposed solution is disruptive and everyone can't agree.
@em Mandarin Chinese doesn’t have the equivalent of Indo-European grammatical gender. There used to be no formal distinction in spoken & written language. The gendered 3rd.p. pronoun was a product of language contact & reform. They’re still homophones so spoken language remains neutral.
他 = he
她 = she
它 = it (only for non human beings)
They all sound the same.
In written language there are many ways to circumvent gendered pronouns.
@em In Spanish the bigger problem is declension of nouns and adjectives, since they have an ending which indicates gender. So "amigas" are female friends, "amigos" are a potentially mixed-gender group, and "amigo" is a male friend. So we've tried out neodeclensions "amig@", "amigx", and "amigue", especially for mixed-gender groups. These are sufficiently socially deviant that some of us seek alternative locutions like "amistad". "Quiero mucho mis amistades"
@em In Spanish,
① nominative pronouns are optional and often omitted, and
② the dative, reflexive, and genitive forms of the usual pronouns don't decline for gender anyway.
That leaves the accusative ("la cogí" (f) vs. "lo cogí" (m)) and prepositional ("por ella" (f) vs. "por él" (m) vs. "por ello" (neuter left over from Latin, but only applicable to abstractions) vs. "por aquello" or "por eso" (neuter)). Neopronouns include "elle/ellx" (nominative/prepositional) and "le/lx" (accusative).
@em Oh and I forgot: "we" is "nosotras" (f) or "nosotros" (m) — in the nominative, you can just omit it, but it's also an issue in the prepositional case.
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