#Fediverse does this happen often to you too?
You found a great post, commented to it, only to find out later that a broad discussion was triggered ... but not on the thread branch you commented on.
So if you didn't bump into it coincidentally you'd be totally unaware of that.
I'd like a Watch Post feature that sends me notification of all activity on the thread.
See also: https://fediverse.town/t/what-features-should-a-community-driven-mastodon-fork-have/60/16
Would you like to have a Watch feature?
@humanetech I'd like a thread to be *a single thread* instead of the multi-branch mess it is now.
@tinyrabbit I can see why you would want that, & I'm sure I'm not going to say anything you haven't thought of already, but my thinking is this.
Suppose there's already a single thread, not too long, easy to read perhaps 10 or 20 toots. But one of the toots in the middle is something to which I'd like to reply. The existing system allows me to do that, whereas having a single thread would force me to tag my comment on the end, even though I'm replying to something further up.
CC: @humanetech
@tinyrabbit My wish is to be able to reply to multiple toots, thus drawing a sprawling conversation back together. Then, additionally, have the ability to render the discussions as graphs, like this:
https://www.solipsys.co.uk/Chartodon/106860815077351260.svg
I've written a discussion system that lets you do that. It's currently find for small numbers of users, and extremely helpful, but pig-ugly, and very parochial.
CC: @humanetech
@ColinTheMathmo @humanetech To me this sort of discussion tree looks quite horrible 😆 I can't imagine the effort it takes to follow that discussion in all its branches, or how frustrated I would be to see virtually the same discussion taking place along a number of different paths. To me it looks like a great way to *socialize*, but a horribly inefficient way to *discuss*.
@tinyrabbit That discussion tree would benefit from navigation tools, and I have those, and that makes it a real pleasure. Open some branches, close off others, hide nodes that don't really contribute, and you end up with the "Real Content" distilled.
As I say, I don't have the skillz to make those tools more widely available, but the chart, when displayed on a decent size screen, can be scrolled around,and the many threads can easily be followed.
Takes a little practice.
CC: @humanetech
@ColinTheMathmo @tinyrabbit @humanetech
If you want to see a beautiful interface for dynamic discussion in a tree-structured thread, I recommend checking out Euphoria: https://euphoria.io/room/welcome/
@dynamic I agree that it's a beautiful rendering, but structurally, it simply looks like the usual linear layout of a tree. Is that right?
One of the great things about DiscDAG is the ability to tie threads together. Another is to use space to show the actual DiGraph.
@ColinTheMathmo @tinyrabbit @humanetech
Tying threads together is not a thing I'd even heard about until you mentioned it in the current discussion thread!
@ColinTheMathmo @tinyrabbit @humanetech
My intuition is that a literal tree-shaped render could be useful for review of a discussion after the fact, but I have a hard time imagining it as an interactive interface.
@dynamic DiscDAG is making progress in that regard. It's intended for dynamic discussions, allowing multiple threads that subsequently come together (where appropriate). It needs better navigation tools, and a better UI in general, but it works well for the appropriate context.
Most examples are private conversations, and those that are public are mostly not good examples, but here are some links.
@dynamic Here is an explanation about the Axiom of Choice, and why it's problematic:
https://www.solipsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/DiscDAG.py?DiscussionID=AxiomOfChoice
Here's a more extensive, free-form discussion about the system itself and some of the problems:
https://www.solipsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/DiscDAG.py?DiscussionID=DiscDAGsFuture
It's almost essential to use Neighbourhood Mode to navigate and follow the discussion a bit at a time, showing that better navigation tools and UI are clearly required.
But I can't imagine trying to follow this in a linear form.
@dynamic Here are links to more:
https://www.solipsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/DiscDAG.py?Action=ListDiscussions
There are many *many* more, but they are private discussions, so you don't have access.
@ColinTheMathmo @tinyrabbit @humanetech
The DAG flow charts you've been posting require both left-right and up-down scrolling, which seems like an even larger impediment to comprehensive discussion than linear-format thread trees would be.
@dynamic I think I'm just going to end up like Ted Nelson, with a vision of "A Thing" which I know will be better than current stuff, but of which I can convince no one because I have neither the ability to implement it, nor the charisma to inspire others to do so.
@dynamic OTOH, maybe it's just crap, and I'm completely deluded. Maybe a linearised tree is the only thing that will ever work, and the best thing that can ever be.
@dynamic But try this. Start with this link:
If a node that is currently not highlighted looks interesting, click on the author's name to add it to the selection and see it and its neighbours. When you're done with a highlighted node, click on the author's name to remove it from the selection.
Then start navigating around. You can collapse everything except a single node-and-neighbours by clicking the grey box.
I think it is certainly not. But probably you have to target other use cases + audiences more. Here, in microblogging domain, it makes most sense to diagram a complex thread graph after it happened. Dynamic view probably not well-suited.
Specialized audience (e.g. scientists) and use cases (argument maps, decision-making, ...) may be excellent to consider.
It'd also help UX designs if your nodes had more semantics than just <text> e.g. linked data vocab.
@humanetech WRT getting an audience, yes, probably these sorts of facilities and capabilities are better suited to a more specialist audience than a generic "social media" context.
WRT semantics and nodes, probably, but I have no front end skills. None. Producing a diagram like this is all I can do, so while what you say is probably true, I can't make it happen.
To be honest, I've pretty much decided to give up, and just use it for myself.
CC: @dynamic @tinyrabbit
@ColinTheMathmo you might describe things in text, no ux designs needed.
For semantics, e.g. the simple fact of a 'node' having a title and subject might give many options for re-arranging the UI, collapse branches, etc.
In special domains more meaningful linked data formats can be used. E.g. in IT context you may label your text with "requirement" and "bug", etc.
Can brainstorm a lot on possiblities, but also talk to audiences on their needs.
@humanetech I've tried. I've tried for years. No one seems to get the vision, and this is what I've produced to try to help people "get it", but that's not helping either.
Sorry, I'm currently in a really negative frame of mind about this because I'm spent(*) a lot of time trying to explain, describe, or otherwise communicate, and I've pretty much got nowhere.
If I were a front-end person then I'd just go and implement it. But I'm not.
CC: @dynamic @tinyrabbit
@humanetech Sorry, I know you're trying to help, but I think I just need to walk away from it for a bit ... it's just making me angry and depressed.
Again.
My inabilities to get people to see the possibilities is immensely frustrating, and I've wasted hundreds of hours.
CC: @dynamic @tinyrabbit
@humanetech I probably just need sleep. As they say, "Go to bed, it'll look better in the morning" is just another way of saying "Did you turn it off and on again?"
I've heard a theory about why use of Zoom exploded and overtook Skype when the latter was already well established. The theory is that Skype required both parties to be registered. If A wanted to talk to B, and B wasn't registered, then B had to go through the process before they could talk.
But ...
CC: @dynamic @tinyrabbit
@humanetech ... with Zoom person A could be registered, and just send a link to B, and it would work. Much less friction.
So B got convinced, and when they wanted to talk to C, B had the motivation to get registered, then send a link to C. And so it went.
Maybe I just need to find a few people who will use it with me, and then maybe they will use it with others. The problem is this.
I don't want to create a new platform. I want it to leverage off the ...
CC: @dynamic @tinyrabbit
@humanetech ... existing #fediverse protocols and capabilities. But they have semantic limitations that prevent it from happening.
What's more, and I can't emphasise this enough ... I don't have the skillz.
After at least 6 years of trying, the evidence is in ... I also don't have the skill or ability to adequately describe the vision either.
I know ... I'm ranting. It's an overflow of the frustration, and I really am sorry.
CC: @dynamic @tinyrabbit
Things will get better. Don't let yourself get down, and also think of all the stuff you have learned over the years.
@humanetech For now, seriously, for now, it's time to just give up, use what I have for my own productivity, and give up trying to persuade anyone.
Moving on.
CC: @dynamic @tinyrabbit
If at first you don't succeed, give up. No use looking like a fool.
CC: @dynamic @tinyrabbit
"Looking like a fool" is only in the eye of the beholder. I wouldn't worry about that. Beside Bret Victor's video, this one is a very nice watch:
In another universe, where I would have infinite time to build interactive data visualisations, I would try to implement this thing you're trying to describe with D3.js.
Very curious about your vision though. It seems that you want to visualise a discussion so that you can have a better overview of the discussion and its dynamics, to empower yourself to both better extract valuable information and understand the dynamics that led to the flow of the discussion?
@Erik Yes and no. And yes.
And no.
It's more than that, and different from that, and encompasses some of what you say, but has more to it as well.
I'm just too tired. I really, really want o have this discussion, but just now, I can't.
How can I get back to you?
CC: @humanetech
By going to sleep and sending a message another day, which is also my plan =) Good night!
That's what I just wanted to advise. I well understand your mood.. have been there myself a couple of times.
You might let go of your immediate goal, but pick up something you find interesting that is still somewhat related to it, like studying radical different UX concept. Master the field. Approach people that think very differently than most others (Bret Victor'like types come to mind)
@humanetech Oh, if I had the time. But no, I have full-time work, and this is something I would use in a heartbeat if it existed, in which I've already invested a large amount of "free time", and which everyone keeps saying either "it's awful" or "no, it needs these 6000 other things".
I don't have time. I don't have the ability. I don't have the skills.And I can't persuade anyone.
CC: @dynamic @tinyrabbit
@dynamic Large, complex discussions will always need some way to render them, and some way to navigate.
I wish I had the skillz to show you my vision ... clearly I'm just not able to make my point.
CC: @tinyrabbit @humanetech