@panickyintheuk Yes, that too! I was thinking about the part where folks say "if you haven't even dated someone of a different gender..." and like, that's not even necessarily about sex, maybe not even kissing - but that *comes from* the sexualising of queerness in a way that straightness is *not* sexualised at all. This also makes me VERY ANGRY.

@cassolotl & because we as a society (often wrongly, but with noble intentions) don't consider children sexual, and because we consider queerness inherently sexual in a way we don't with straightness, the idea of a child being queer is SUPER TABOO, because it's ~sexualising children~. This idea is so ingrained in our culture that even I have struggled with it and I've been out for a decade! It's wrong, but tbh I do think it's understandable, bc it's so unspoken and internalised

@panickyintheuk Gosh, yes. It's like sex = guilty, children = innocent. So children being sexual is just THE MOST ABHORRENT THING. And then queer = sexual harms kids. This stuff is going to take so much very very careful dismantling for a long time.

@panickyintheuk Well, not children being sexual is abhorrent, but the idea of accusing a child of having sexuality is abhorrent.

@cassolotl It's something I didn't see being discussed even in the queer community until fairly recently, so I think progress IS being made, but I'm sometimes reminded of how far these ideas have to go before they creep into the mainstream. Like I was talking to some colleagues the other day and I realised how totally uninformed they are about any kind of queer discourse. I shouldn't be surprised I guess, but I thought at least some basic knowledge of trans issues was mainstream now

@panickyintheuk Yeah, there's a definite culture shock. I spend all my time with queer autistic folks, and then if I ever have to talk to eg: my neighbours... Oh my gosh. They're kinda learning bits and pieces just from me slowly introducing little snippets to them, which is nice! :)

@cassolotl Yeah, it's tricky because I'm not Out at work (I'm not In either, but y'know, presumed heterosexuality being what it is). And I have one colleague in particular who prides himself on "not being PC" and it's really starting to piss me off. I don't want to get into arguments at work but he used a slur for Roma ppl the other day (worse than the g slur) and I just couldn't let it pass without comment. And we work with disabled kids! Cultural sensitivity is a basic requirement

@panickyintheuk Urgh, that's awful! This guy is really not well-suited to that kind of working environment! o.O

@cassolotl Oh man, it's complicated. He's been doing it for years and in some ways he's actually really good, and he can be very generous (he was kind of a mentor to me when I first started), but I think he needs to retire. He's too old-school and he can't adjust and he says stupid shit sometimes because the world's changing too fast and he can't keep up :/ I don't want to totally write him off though, bc like most people he contains multitudes. But yeah it pissed me off big time

@panickyintheuk Ahhh, I know what you mean. That *is* complicated. And being really un-PC is such a common way of "dealing" with the world moving faster than you can keep up, and it's really harmful!

@cassolotl I've thought about talking to my line manager about some kind of workplace sensitivity training, but it's a part-time gig and I doubt they could find room in the budget for it tbh. And what money we do have should really go to the kids :/ It's not exactly amazing for my morale though. I wonder whether I should come out just so people would think twice before shooting their mouths off, but I shouldn't have to do that

@panickyintheuk Yeah, you shouldn't. That whole situation is really unfair. And like, sensitivity training would benefit the kids and you and queer colleagues, but *indirectly* - so it's hard. It sucks that it's like waiting for tectonic plates to move!

@Parzival Exactly!

@Parzival @cassolotl not just presumptuous, its fundamentally unhealthy, spiritually, for the human species . the older I get, I'm 60 now, the more i realize that norms don't exist, theyre just ideology, and is now worsened by digital capitalism

@theresatagonmyshirt @Parzival I'm only 30, and I definitely find that the older I get, the more "unnatural" it seems to me to be to deny variations in sexuality and gender (and assume defaults)! Something about perspectives shifting very gradually, I think.

@AGTMADCAT That is quite a leap! From "this is how it was for me" to "no one should be/is sexual at birth."

Imposing who you think should and should not be sexual is something I'm not willing to do at all, and as far as I have seen in news/science articles, even foetuses are somewhat sexual, but also I am essentially a man in a pub so not exactly a reliable source. ;)

@cassolotl Sorry, that wasn't meant to be a commandment or anything, but from what I've seen it seems to hold true. Before sex hormones kick in at least a little, sexuality doesn't seem to exist ime. Was your personal experience different?

My first flickers of sexuality were when I was probably about 8. Before that, "gay" or "straight" would have been meaningless concepts to apply to me.

@AGTMADCAT Well, like, I don't really want to get into details about my own sexual history. I'm trans so I've had enough of that to last a lifetime. But I know people who can't remember a time when they weren't sexual, & "sex hormones" are present even before birth, so it's always there as far as I know! We might not notice it for a while because the levels aren't high enough, but there are increases in hormones several times pre-puberty.

@AGTMADCAT If it is influenced by sex hormones, perhaps there are people whose sex hormones never get high enough so they never find out what their sexuality is - but as far as I can tell my sex drive is normal-to-high and I have no clue what my sexuality is! :yum: So, it's complicated. There are many factors at play and no two people are the same.

@cassolotl As I understand it, which sex hormones you have and in what quantities doesn't change who you're attracted to, but having sex hormones present is what activates that whole system. Something about neural wiring determines who someone is attracted to, but it needs sex hormones for that circuitry to kick on.

Of course, the science on this is all still a bit ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, so that could all be wrong.

And not everyone fits neatly into gar/straight!

@AGTMADCAT I guess I just don't know enough to know for sure. I've heard so many very conflicting personal accounts!

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ indeed!

@cassolotl Fair enough, I don't want to intrude! My trans friends have generally had some idea about a sex-gender mismatch from a very young age, but it was never a sexual thing.

@AGTMADCAT But yeah, I get what you're saying - that you didn't consider yourself straight until some kind of sexual attraction indicator happened, and so to have someone assume you were straight before that would be super weird.

I agree, for sure - assuming someone's sexuality or relationship orientation before they've worked it out for themself and then somehow told you is SUPER RUDE. :/