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some senior devs really are like "wow it's just wave after wave of junior devs who keep making the same mistakes" and then also don't give any kind of mentoring

maybe we should invest in creating a "workshop tradition" to pass down instead of relying on everyone to have self-taught by growing up in a priviledged household with tons of computer time and minimal stress

@SuricrasiaOnline I wonder if like, a formal apprenticeship model or something would also benefit it?

@SuricrasiaOnline "We don't have the person-hours to mentor someone, we need to hire someone who comes with the skills out of the box."

"The person we hired and threw in the shark tank is taking too long to get up to speed, everyone will need to tighten down on their sprints to cover the gap."

"Mentor our new hires? All our senior devs are too busy with how behind we've gotten!"

It never ends.

@trysdyn @SuricrasiaOnline This.

I'd love to stop and teach folks, and have them do cool stuff and learn it.

Given that the environment we live in is "no we won't pay for that, it's not instant cash, also we have to please our investors and they didn't give us money for that" I'm stuck trying to make things better, and dealing with legacy stuff that is hoisted onto me by folks who don't give a crap about the code or what it does, they just did what the minimum and "who cares anyway?"

And when you point out that Electron is eating all the damned memory and this could be better, "Oh you're old and grumpy and shouting at clouds lol" so you get turned off, because people aren't receptive, and you go into this shell of protection for your own sanity.

The ENVIRONMENT needs to change or this will continue to be the hell that we all fall into.

Also it's a widening hellhole, moving outward at an exponential rate

@trysdyn @SuricrasiaOnline this is precisely amazon internships lol. and they were surprised when we sank and didn't "have a bias for action". hard to take action when you have no idea what's going on

@SuricrasiaOnline Amen. I'm listening to a podcast guest talk about how the blockchain could be used to hoist self-taught young people out of poverty in poor countries via their phones and I'm like where do you think they'll find the time/energy, among so many other barriers to that?

@SuricrasiaOnline FFS: I hit Play after posting this and the very next thing he says is "This levels out the playing field." *screams internally*

@jaycie @SuricrasiaOnline not to mention: this is how we got in the pickle we're in NOW.

When we somewhat-younger-than-the-oldest engineers were younger, we thought the internet could be used to do this, and started working on it, and...

"Oh look someone else came in and took our ideas which we put out there for the benefit of all and is using it to fsck other people over for power and profit why didn't we see this coming, oh wait, we did, we just were saying people could learn it and they didn't WANT to because that would be slower than instant gratification which the powerhungry were peddling... oh and the fact that some people thought a bunch of words on a piece of paper would protect us."

I mean, yes, I came from poverty. I also have advantages that others don't. That's why I get so mad when others don't try to help others, and go along with these hostile anti-human things that people keep putting out there because "isn't hurting me so who cares"

@SuricrasiaOnline I'd love both proper apprenticeships (rather than scam internships/ exam-passing accelerator courses) and more informal community bikeshedding and show-and-tell sessions that aren't about how cool the person up front is, but how the person sitting down can do it too

@SuricrasiaOnline As many problems as there are with Google and FB, both companies consider code review and feedback to be important part of a senior dev's job, and both do a significant amount of training. In fact, Google even has a residency program.

I'm hoping the move to remote work means we'll see more companies doing this as they move away from "Hire straight out of Stanford/Berkeley/MIT". Of course, it means they have to have people who can/want to mentor in the first place.

@SuricrasiaOnline Part of the problem may well be that what companies hire as "senior devs" really aren't that great overall. Sure, they can code, but they don't really work with other people and they certainly don't teach. Exactly the kind of person a mediocre software engineering manager will promote: they turn specs into code quickly, don't push back a lot.

@SuricrasiaOnline And in turn those mediocre managers get promoted because they're willing to commit to aggressive timelines, and then when they inevitably miss those timelines, they work nights and weekends along with their team.

@SuricrasiaOnline @ajroach42 we used to, even. I grew up oscillating between broke and poor, dumpster dived for my first computer and my dad taught me to solder to fix it (thanks US army for teaching a guy who didn't finish HS some useful skills), started learning to code from library books

Got a job being a tape monkey and developers at that place loved that I was interested and mentored me, got me into projects to learn more, etc. This was normal and expected in most places until after the dotCom bubble. "Tech Bros" and programmer-as-status-symbol have caused a lot of cultural damage.

@SuricrasiaOnline if i were bad at something i would simply know things about it already

@SuricrasiaOnline

I see the issue as endemic to the current culture. Some fields need practice in order to get good enough to pay, and we don't value practice as a society.

Seen this way, it covers all manner of things from the arts, to everything around software development, to anything with an "unpaid internship" to more.

Degrees are fine, but personal passion projects demonstrating those skills are better... and that's something not available to the poor.

@SuricrasiaOnline we were thinking about this yesterday and suddenly our childhood spent hanging out while our sister the concert violinist did stuff kicked in and we imagined programming master classes

the students bring their best excerpts and the expert goes through them and comments on what works well and what they might change to make it better

- Packdragon(?) 🐲 💭

@SuricrasiaOnline if every other craftswork that the backbone of society depended on had that attitude wowe

@SuricrasiaOnline and no one takes the effort to write nice documentation

@SuricrasiaOnline And some of those mistakes could be avoided, but the allowed toolset is defined by the senior devs and happens to contain the crapshots they built back when they were junior themselves and was never fixed up.

(Looking at you, C, and all your descendants)

@SuricrasiaOnline some of the issues stem from the fact some "senior" devs are only like 30 years old and still too busy refactoring the crap they made 5 years ago

@SuricrasiaOnline Why would we? We knew everything when we were young, the noobs say they know everything now. I'm sure it'll work out.

@SuricrasiaOnline You should be aware that I'm Gen-X, so everything I say is both true and so poisoned with irony you can't possibly take it at surface level.

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