My hope is, if you truly want to be a good person, logic and reason will guide you there.

But my understanding is, if all you want to be is logical and rational, you might eventually find yourself in a very cruel way.

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This is one of those "your axioms dictate what kinds of theorems you can prove" kinda things. If you do not take empathy as an axiom, you will never prove you should be good to people.

@SuricrasiaOnline its kinda like scientism - *science itself cannot provide the basis for ethics*

@SuricrasiaOnline not necessarily? If you're not good to people, they won't be good to you, therefore you should be good to people.

@popefucker Some people get around this by manipulating others, unfortunately.

But I get that what I said is probably not always true. It might be possible to discover goodness from something external, but I think exercising empathy is so powerful it shouldn't be passed up.

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@SuricrasiaOnline doesn't cooperation depend on empathy? and cooperation is kind of a good strategy to follow....ok that's not a very rigorous proof but i think it can be proven, it's just not intuitive

@grainloom Not necessarily. If someone hits you with a big fish every time you don't cooperate with them, you will eventually learn to cooperate with them. No empathy needed. I do think empathy leads to cooperation, though.

@grainloom This is assuming you do not like being hit with a big fish.

@grainloom @SuricrasiaOnline

I think cooperation can also occur for totally self interested reasons.

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