@kara I try to forget that.

@Canageek oh dear...I'm really not sure how to respond to that! what is it that you imagine I do?

@kara Based on my knowledge of Chaos Magik? Anything you can generate a sustained belief that you can do, or get a number of other people to also believe in?

@Canageek I do not require anyone else to "believe" in anything. however, the psychological effect of a shared belief is stronger than one that is merely private, so shared belief is a nice thing to tap into.

@kara If you can actually get magik to work, James Randi will give you $1 million you know

@Canageek since I use magick chiefly to affect the way my brain processes information, I'm not sure Randi's bet applies here...?

@kara Is that magik or just forcing your mind into certain thought patterns? I totally believe that thinking a certain way can effect how your brain processes information, that seems almost tautological. However, I don't see why you'd need to invoke supernatural elements for that?

@Canageek "magick" and "forcing my mind into certain thought patterns" are roughly equivalent statements, in my view

what you call "supernatural" I'll soften into "the largest of shared beliefs". it so happens that the most potent shared beliefs that can be used to shape the course of one's thoughts are beliefs in deities &c.

it's there, all round us, all through our culture and literature and media and everything

gonna grab it

gonna use it

@kara See, that isn't what I meant. I was talking about the manipulation of external things, or ability to gain information through occult means.

Ie the Canadian prime minister who set policy via seances, or someone who actually thinks they can make love charms or find water, etc.

@Canageek oh heck I don't think any of that nonsense works

@kara Yeah, I thought that was the general meaning of magic, doubly so when spelled with a K.

I have done research, but I tend to follow older sources, off Usenet and whatnot? The type of people that thought if enough of them prayed to a god out of a popular novel series they would become real and start granting miracles.

Or the guy that started the Black Eyed Children urban legend to see if he could make a real monster.

@Canageek oh, ok, I guess I can't blame you. that was roughly the notion of magic[k] I picked up in college. only very very recently have I started to encounter somewhat less, er, New-Agey ideas about how "magick" can be useful as a concept when stripped of baggage

@Canageek or, let's put it this way

if I knew you _so_ well that I knew what beliefs and symbols and so forth exerted some leverage over your mind, I could give you some tap water and do some ritual or other or paste some magick symbols on it, and tell you it was a love charm, and damned if you wouldn't feel like it was doing something XD

@kara Right, but that isn't magic, that is psychology.

@Canageek they grade into one another

@kara That just means you are smart and good at social engineering.

@Canageek again, arguably, this is something that's on the same continuum as "magick", not a separate kind of thing.

@JigmeDatse See later message. The anarchists I'd met were basically libertarians who wanted to pretend to be left-wing. I've been told not all of them are like that, so I'm going to try to be more flexible.

But as someone who has worked in both the drug and nuclear industries and heard MANY stories of 'the olden times' I'm a BIG believer in strong regulations and governments watchful eye. Even well meaning people do bad things, as many stories of pipefitters spreading radiation around will tell you.

@JigmeDatse I mean, that sounds like the need for democratic socialism to me. Lots of watchdog agencies, lots of oversite, lots of methods of appealing rulings, lots of consultations. Not removing rules and trusting people to do the right thing.

@JigmeDatse Ok, so that is a problem. However, you also get things where innocent people will do damage without knowing it.

Nuclear industry. Pipefitter took a shortcut due to a fallen fence. Not meaning to do any harm. Got plutonium all over himself, tracked it everywhere. Luckily was caught when he next went through a mandatory monitoring station.

@Canageek @JigmeDatse This is not a safe conversation for us. I don’t know where this attitude towards magic practitioners is coming from, but the ones I have known (both in-system and Earthside) do not believe they are gods. They are not trying to prove anything. They are trying to take care of themselves. Practices like divination aren’t for profit, scientific breakthroughs, or ending wars. They are deeply personal rituals that vary from person to person.

@sailorplutosays @JigmeDatse I...am a scrawny Canadian geek that doesn't believe in personal weapon ownership? Unless you come to my lab, then stand still while I pour chemicals on you, it would be REALLY hard for me to hurt you, so don't worry about that? I didn't even realize you were also in Vancouver until you mentioned it, since I'm bad at keeping track of that stuff.

@sailorplutosays @JigmeDatse My argument is that belief in magic hurts people, since it steers them away from things that work. Hurting people would be counter productive (and you know, morally wrong), to that goal.

@JigmeDatse @sailorplutosays But I'll admit: a good chunk of my background in modern magic (aside from hanging out with goths in high school) is incidental to reading up on other, more directly harmful things (TCM, homopathy, health supplements) that are even more easily dispproved in the lab.

@sailorplutosays @JigmeDatse But also from reading about people like Brian Bethel. He is where they Black Eyed Children myth comes from.

(In summary: There are kids with all black eyes, they are aliens or spirits depending on the version. They need to be invited into your house/car. If you agree to let them in, bad things.)

He was a poster to alt.magick on Usenet, and talked about how since reality was governed by belief, if enough people believed in an urban legend it would become true.

@JigmeDatse @sailorplutosays Then he made the first known post about the Black-Eyed Children to alt.folklore.ghost-stories a while later with this very persuasive myth, probably in an attempt to make it real.

So: 1) There ARE people who believe you can alter reality through force of will
2) They are willing to create monsters to prove they are right.
3) Even if he wasn't a believer, no ethics board would approve that experiment.

@JigmeDatse I can't reply to any of your messages as I can't tell what you are replying to?