@Canageek @Concerned_Catgirl the car won't start if the parts haven't been paired to the car beforehand by a certified tech

literally everything of mechanical note is paired

@Elizafox @Canageek fucking hell

@Canageek @Concerned_Catgirl there's a guy who hacked it all in his quest to make a Tesla from salvaged parts and bodies (which he did, a few times) and he is incredible

he has also had to endure so much BS a man should never endure

@Concerned_Catgirl @Elizafox @Canageek and holy fuck will you need those repairs afaict

@Canageek @Elizafox @Concerned_Catgirl https://jalopnik.com/this-guy-documents-nearly-a-year-of-quality-problems-wi-1819955046

@a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl @Elizafox This is why I like right to hack states?

@a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl @Canageek hell yes I completely agree

there needs to be more right to repair and right to modify

@Elizafox @Concerned_Catgirl @Canageek right to reverse engineer too

@Canageek @Concerned_Catgirl @Elizafox I think that's already a thing, but I'm not sure

@a_breakin_glass @Elizafox @Concerned_Catgirl It is, but you need to consult a laywer first, and do it in a professional, clean room manner.

@Concerned_Catgirl @Elizafox @Canageek unlike games journalism, there are actual ethics problems in electric car journalism http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/09/65000-pyramid-electric-autojournos-pump-tesla-stock-receive-massive-gifts/

@a_breakin_glass @Elizafox @Concerned_Catgirl To be fair there ARE ethics problems in games journalism. Someone (I forget their name, but they worked at Ars Technica for years before leaving) has been documenting it for over a decade now.

Just, it was actual ethical issues like big boozy clubs being used for demos being shown off, and free trips to vegas to play the demo and such.

Not stuff asshats made up our of thin air.

@Concerned_Catgirl @Elizafox @a_breakin_glass FOUND IT. Ben Kuchera. This was my first window into it, 2007: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2007/12/the-gamespot-controversy-as-a-window-into-the-world-of-gaming-journalism/

He has kept writing about it after leaving ars.

(The key was "game insdustry advertising site:arstechnica.com" )

@a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl @Elizafox @Canageek As that article hints, the entire automotive journalism space is rotten, but yeah, once you introduce fanboyism and referral programs...

One hint re: rotten automotive journalism is... read a random new car review. Odds are, it'll be positive.

Then read a comparison review with that car, ideally by the same outlet. Shortcomings might be mentioned.

Then, a year later, read a review of a competing car. It may be honest about the first car.

@bhtooefr @a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl @Elizafox My issue with videogame reviews is that they also only come out at launch. I want to know a year latter, has it been fixed? Is it better now?

@Canageek @a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl @Elizafox That'd actually be an interesting concept, a long term review of a game. We see game reviews that go back 10 years, but not one year - and that one year point is when things like Steam sales kick in.

I feel like it's important to note that the problems in video game journalism aren't even where the GamerGaters are looking, though.

@Elizafox @Concerned_Catgirl @a_breakin_glass @Canageek Namely, it's not the shit that was fabricated against women in gaming that they're howling about.

It's things like the AAA stereotypical gamerbro shit that they love and how it's handled, it's the Mountain Dew and Doritos that GamerGaters are hoovering up (and dead-eyed "journalists" hawking Dewritos), it's shit like that.

@bhtooefr @Elizafox @Concerned_Catgirl @a_breakin_glass Yeah, the peices I was talking about ALSO talk about how E3 can be doubly hard on women due to the overtly sexual nature of a lot of the advertising.

FFS there was a game demo that ended in a stripclub.

@bhtooefr @Elizafox @Concerned_Catgirl @Canageek if a crap AAA game got an honest review, gamergaters would be blaming it on the SJWs.

@a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl @Elizafox @bhtooefr You mean "when they". Jim Sterling gets death threads for his CoD reviews.

@Canageek @Elizafox @Concerned_Catgirl @a_breakin_glass This effect is strongest with American cars, I find - the rags are falling over each other to talk about how GM/Ford/Chrysler ACTUALLY MADE A GOOD CAR!

In a comparison review, they'll admit a couple niggles, but still try to say it's good.

Then, a year later, they'll actually admit that it's shit. (Note that ingrained biases will still show through at this point, though - so if they still *like* something that's shit, that won't happen.)

@a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl @Elizafox @Canageek Now this is going to be a rant about the Fiesta 1.0 EcoBoost.

When it came out, automotive journalists were raving about how it's the return of the cheap and cheerful hatchback to America - great fun to drive, torquey powerplant, tossable car, etc., etc., etc.

Based on that, I actually decided to test drive one - on paper, it looked interesting.

@Canageek @Elizafox @Concerned_Catgirl @a_breakin_glass In the real world?

Numb steering, zero sensation of speed, I felt like I was doing 40 when I was actually doing 70 (...in a 55, whoops). The thing always did exactly what I told it to without any feedback - good in some ways (it's worse for it to NOT do what I told it to without feedback), but the lack of feedback was not confidence inspiring.

I got back in my modded Mk4 Golf TDI, and in, oh, 100 feet of driving knew that Fiesta sucked.

@a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl @Elizafox @Canageek Do you hear any automotive journalists even talking about that car today (note that you can still buy it), or lamenting that it'll be discontinued soon in the US? Nope. Because it wasn't good enough to be memorable (which means it wasn't that good), and it wasn't bad enough to be memorable (so it has that much going for it). They've moved onto the new shiny.

(They do lament the Fiesta ST going away in the US, though, so there is that.)

@Canageek @Elizafox @Concerned_Catgirl @a_breakin_glass Another one, the Gen 2 Chevy Volt - the plug-in hybrid that I mentioned that I had considered, in this thread.

All sorts of reviews were going on and on about how "this is the hybrid for car enthusiasts, it actually drives like a real car should, the handling is great, it's got great torque!"

It does have great torque, I will give them that. 111 kW of electric motor will do that for you, though.

@a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl @Elizafox @Canageek The problem is, the reviews were done on glass smooth California roads. (It's not the kind of car that gets the automotive reviewer's attention, so they tend to only do a first look review at the automaker's venue of choice, not a full review later.)

And, the Volt's got a fair amount of tire - 215/50R17 stock, that'll give it a decent amount of grip on modern low rolling resistance tires.

@Canageek @Elizafox @Concerned_Catgirl @a_breakin_glass Let me tell you, on shitty Ohio roads, the problems became very apparent.

This was quite possibly the worst body control I've ever felt in a car. It honestly felt like they took a stock Chevy Cruze (that's, mechanically, what a Volt basically is), added 500 pounds of battery (which they did), and then did nothing to the suspension. The result had such poor body control that a 10 minute test drive had me almost puking.

@a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl @Elizafox @Canageek The suspension tuning wasn't even the worst problem.

I couldn't see out of the thing.

I'm 6'1" (~185 cm), for what it's worth - well within the design range of heights for a modern car. I've even owned two Mazda Miatas - not exactly appropriately sized cars for someone my size, and I could see fine out of those, except at stoplights, where I'd have to either put the top down, or lean forward and to the side to see them.

@Canageek @Elizafox @Concerned_Catgirl @a_breakin_glass In the Volt, though, I couldn't see very well in any direction other than straight ahead.

Forward and up, for stoplights? I had to lean forward.

To the sides? The beltline was *THAT* high that it interfered with side vision.

To the rear? A lifted full-size pickup behind me was hidden from my view until I turned on the backup camera.

Someone in a turn lane opposite me? The A-pillar completely obscured them.

@bhtooefr @Canageek @Elizafox @a_breakin_glass

damn the parts of this detailed talk I spot and take the time to read are super interesting, I wonder if anyone would pay attention if I talked about tanks like this

@Concerned_Catgirl @Canageek @Elizafox @a_breakin_glass TBQH I've seen the most random stuff take off on this part of the Fediverse. I'd give it a shot, see where it goes.

@a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl @Elizafox @Canageek All of these visibility issues? I don't recall seeing reviewers mention a word about them, and I was reading basically every review of that car (soaking up information, I mean, this was the car that I was strongly considering handing over, oh, $30k of my money for).

As far as the suspension issues... I found one review (a comparison review) that hinted towards them, in a couple of paragraphs, even as it praised the Volt suspension.

@Canageek @Elizafox @Concerned_Catgirl @a_breakin_glass Here's the review: http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/volt/2016/2016-chevrolet-volt-toyota-prius-best-way-to-use-gallon-of-gas/

Note how they talk about the nimbleness of the Prius, in comparison to the Volt. That's the only review I found that actually claimed that the Prius suspension was in any way better than the Volt.

Now, here's what I left out... the day before I test drove that Volt that I hated so much, I actually test drove that generation of Prius.

@a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl @Elizafox @Canageek The Prius is a weird exception to the automotive journalism world's rules about reviews. Some cars, you're not supposed to write a positive review, you're supposed to take the car down, because it's an anti-enthusiast car. The Prius, well, that's /the/ anti-enthusiast car. It's the car for people who hate cars, but must own one. (Similar treatment is given to the Toyota Camry, although it's more likely to get a positive review.)

@Canageek @Elizafox @Concerned_Catgirl @a_breakin_glass So, the Prius I test drove.

One thing I always like to do when test driving cars is go home after the test drive - that gives me a chance to compare to what I have now, and to give myself time to think about what I experienced.

I drove my Miata - one of *THE* canonical enthusiast cars - to that test drive. That was throwing the Prius in the deep end, admittedly - comparing the anti-enthusiast car to one of the main enthusiast cars.

@Concerned_Catgirl @Canageek @a_breakin_glass you will

Tesla and quality don't go together

their real game is they want you to lease

like when you lease you sign an NDA apparently that states you can't disclose when things break in exchange for basically free repairs

@Elizafox @Concerned_Catgirl @Canageek @a_breakin_glass Oh, oh, leasing and EVs, this is something I wanted to touch on.

So, in the non-Tesla EV market, the automakers are pushing leasing *EXTREMELY* hard. There's a couple factors, here, really.

In states with zero emissions mandates (CA, CT, MA, MD, ME, NJ, NY, OR, RI, VT), automakers only get ZEV credits by either buying excess ones (usually from Tesla or Nissan), or actually registering new zero-emissions vehicles in those states.

@a_breakin_glass @Canageek @Concerned_Catgirl @Elizafox Also, because of the rapid pace of technology development in the BEV market, there's a lot of wariness of being stuck with an EV. Early adopters who bought a 2010 Volt or a 2011 LEAF found this out the hard way - they financed $35-45k, and then at the end of their loan term, they could buy a new one for $20-35k, or sometimes less in the case of a LEAF.

This means that resale value is absolute shit, and nobody wants to be holding the bag.

@Elizafox @Concerned_Catgirl @Canageek @a_breakin_glass Concerns about battery degradation - very well-founded in the case of the LEAF - made this even more of an issue.

And then there's how the federal tax credit worked. (I'll ignore batteries less than 16 kWh for this.) For plug-ins with 16+ kWh, there's a $7500 non-refundable federal tax credit.

Problem: You have to have $7500 in federal tax liability in the first place, and a lot of people don't have that.

@a_breakin_glass @Canageek @Concerned_Catgirl @Elizafox Solution: If you lease it, the bank definitely has $7500 of federal tax liability, and can then apply the tax credit to the lease - either as a capitalized cost reduction (an additional $7500 down payment, essentially), or as an addition to the residual value (the resale value at the end). Either way, your lease payments go down a lot.

@Elizafox @Concerned_Catgirl @Canageek @a_breakin_glass Note that adding to the residual value increases the cost to buy the car out, and this is where the automakers realized they could win: if the buyout cost is inflated by $7500, nobody's going to buy it out, it'll be cheaper to just get another one at the end of the lease. (And then the bank gets another $7500 tax credit, too, from that second car.)

Of course, this also depresses the used market value even more.

@a_breakin_glass @Canageek @Concerned_Catgirl @Elizafox Meanwhile, the automakers are scrambling to get as many ZEV credits as they can, in the ZEV states, so they're subsidizing the leases, too.

This is to the point where you can walk into a California Fiat dealer on Black Friday, put $2500 down, and get a Fiat 500e for $49/mo for 36 months. Oh, and California will give you that $2500 back as a rebate when you register it, for registering a new electric vehicle.

@Elizafox @Concerned_Catgirl @Canageek @a_breakin_glass Note that this is a car where the list price is $33,000. You're driving it for three years for under $2,000.

Let me tell you, they ain't worth anywhere near that on the used market - more like about $8-12,000 or so after the lease is up.

@a_breakin_glass @Canageek @Concerned_Catgirl @Elizafox Now, note that I said the non-Tesla EV market.

Teslas are... different. They're actually desirable, for a while they had resale value protection, and it seems like they're capable enough that they don't see the resale value crash that most other EVs get. Oh, and their clientele is far more likely to have $7500 of federal tax liability.

AFAICT, Tesla actually *ISN'T* disproportionately using leasing, unlike the rest of the EV market.

@a_breakin_glass @Canageek @Concerned_Catgirl @Elizafox As an aside, a couple of friends got a couple off-lease Fiat 500es as city runabouts, and love them. From what I've heard, if you're fine with 60-100 miles of range, and 7.2 kW charging (so 18-30 miles of range per hour), they're actually really good starter EVs.

Usually, compliance cars tend to have horrific engineering issues because they were meant as just that - quick ways to comply with ZEV mandates. This one seems to be well done.

@Elizafox @Concerned_Catgirl @Canageek @a_breakin_glass Of course, that goes into a mentality that a lot of people have - "starter EV".

This goes back to the thing that I'm frustrated with - that the "real" EV that you graduate to is always a Tesla, and there's no good option that isn't Tesla. (I mean, the Chevy Bolt exists, but the seats are atrocious, and the fast charging network is currently poor and GM refuses to invest in it because their internal combustion customers can't use it.)

@a_breakin_glass @Canageek @Concerned_Catgirl @Elizafox Oh, and where Tesla has a *LOT* of parallels... Apple, really.

Expensive, cult-like fanbase, strongly discouraging/preventing independent repair, avoiding transparency to their own customers... yet sometimes being the only fucking company to get things right in some areas, and everyone at /best/ aimlessly follows them.

@a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl @Elizafox @bhtooefr as I understand California's rules are percentage of sales so they have to make sure that they're actually good enough to sell.

@Canageek @a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl @Elizafox Or *CHEAP* enough to sell, hence the Fiat 500e lease deals.

@Elizafox @Canageek @Concerned_Catgirl Annoyingly, that one isn't just Tesla. Volkswagen's doing it nowadays, too. I'm sure other automakers are doing it as well.

(And they used to be so hacker friendly, partially just because their computers did so much, and there were/are great third-party tools for them. Of course, ever since 2004, you've needed third-party tools marketed to locksmiths to change ECUs or instrument clusters...)

@Concerned_Catgirl @Canageek @Elizafox Although, most cars aren't literally phoning home to see if they're in an approved configuration and disabling themselves if they aren't...